got my ecu tuned by powerchip

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

Yes I completely understand and knew this before hand, which is why I was so skeptical at first. If it was a placebo effect, don't you think I would have jumped out of the gate screaming about how great it was? Read my response to Jim :P
Placebo effect is/was never an issue.

Not necessarily. Your first suspicions that the car is not faster or maybe even slower could very well be correct. However, to justify the money spent you might have tricked yourself into thinking something more is there when it's not.

P.S. it was really hard to read your response to Jim. It was super long and I couldn't really tell where his quote ended and your response began so I skipped over it last night. You might want to clean that up a bit.

[Bavarian Motorist]

I apologize. It's the way the forum settings are. If you quote someone and leave the name blank, it uses their actual statement as the quotee's name, so you see doubles of everything quoted.


But please don't forget I have a 2 week guarantee on this product.


I still may return it...I'd lose $80 for shipping is all.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

It's day 3/12 (12 because I want to allow a day to send it back if necessary) now, Jim. I will be reporting every day to see if I can get you guys the most info I can.


I have heard all of the things you say so many times. That a tune by itself will not yield much benefit..that you need to remove air restrictions...that my type of engine can't be improved that much.


That's why I am so surprised myself!




Well, I asked them what exactly they DO. They told me, and I'm not sure if this is what all ecu tuners do, but bear w/ me... that the majority of what they do is just making sure the fuel injection and spark plug ignition take place as close together in time as possible...might improve MPG? Certainly is more fuel efficient.



Do you think the dramatic temperature change made a substantial difference? Like I said, the majority of the time I've had my car it's been in the 30s and 40s...and then the day I get the ECU back, it's 65 and I am not impressed w/ the results. The very next day, it's 40 out and I am suddenly impressed.



Let it be known that I want this to be real. I don't just want to think it's real or pretend it's real. So let's hope

Hi,

I think you're trying to convince yourself. What they told you they do to the Fuel Timing Maps is a very broad statement - all Maps involve syncronizing the Injector Pulse Width with the ignition (spark), but so far as taking place as close together as possible, this isn't true. And how they do what they do is just as important as the end result. Do they produce new Maps? Or (most Likely) do they introduce software to fool the DME into selecting different Maps than it otherwise would for a given set of operating parameters?

The Fuel Timing (when the Injector is pulsed) is dependent upon the engine's Duty Cycle. That is, when the Intake Valve is closed and the Piston is on it's Compression Stroke. This allows the Fuel and Air to emulsify (mix) and compress to achieve the best combustion. The length of this Injector Pulse (called the Pulse Width or Duration) determines how much Fuel is introduced into the cylinder.

Now the time interval of this Duty Cycle changes in response to how fast the engine is turning (RPMs). The Compression Stroke on an engine revving at 6k RPM is half as long in duration than one for the same engine revving at 3k RPM and the Injector Pulses (not the Pulse Width, or Duration) are twice as far apart for the 3k RPM mode than the 6k RPM one.

As far as Spark is concerned, the Duty Cycle is also important, but for different reasons. The Ignition of the Fuel/Air Mix starts at the Spark and travels (or propagates) outward to the Cylinder Walls. This takes Time (although it is measured in nanoseconds, it still takes Time nonetheless). In order to capture the maximum energy the A/F Mix contains, all the mix must be combusted just as the Piston reaches it's uppermost position - Top Dead Center (TDC). This makes the most energy available to push the Piston back down. If this doesn't occur, either some fuel is left unburned or the energy from that fuel isn't available to do Work (push the Piston). So, the Spark must occur at a precise optimal point in the Duty Cycle. But, since the Duty Cycle duration is variable (depending upon engine RPMs), this optimal point for the Spark to occur also changes. In the 6k vs 3k RPM scenario, in order for the A/F mix to properly combust, the Spark must be introduced sooner at 6k RPMs than at 3k RPMs, this is known as being Advanced (or sooner before TDC is reached).

These Optimal Points for Fuel Timing and Spark differ throughout both the RPM and Load Range and are independent of each other. This means you don't always want them as close together as possible, contrary to what you've been told. They have been determined experimentally in the Lab and are programmed as code into the ECU (DME in Porsche Parlance) and are called Maps. Using the signals from various sensors in the engine and car, the DME compares actual conditions to a set of known conditions and selects the correct Map programmed for those conditions and energizes the Fuel Injector and Spark Plug accordingly.

This is the very basic function of the DME. But, the Maps also incorporate other considerations such as Intake Valve cooling, Detonation Thresholds, Emissions, MPG (Lean Fuel Metering - Cruising), Fuel Quality, Engine Service Life, etc. which may set the Fuel and Spark introduction at other than Optimal Points (less than Optimal specifically for Performance that is).

A typical re-chip does not find some new Magical points at which to fire the Injectors or Plugs, it most often uses software to mask or alter the signals the DME receives from it's various sensors to fool it (the DME) into ignoring many of the non-performance related parameters and adjusts the firing points accordingly by selecting different Maps than those called for by the actual operating conditions. This will increase Performance, only very mildly for an NA engine - greater gains are to be had on Forced engines (such as Open Exhaust Valve combustion to maintain Turbo RPMs, etc.).

But these re-chips are dependent upon the DME's Memory Capacity. The file size for Bosch Motronic 5.2 (2.5L engines) is 16 Kb, 512Kb (or 32X more) for Motronic 7.2.2 and 720Kb for Motronic 7.8. This means that there is more to work with on the ver. 7.8 than the ver. 5.2.

Temperature has little to do with it as it is already compensated for in Air Mass determination and Engine Temp. - the DME adjusts accordingly.

Also, just as important as achieving a gain, you have to look at where those gains take place in the Power bands. If they're all at 6k RPM and above, you're rarely gonna tap into them anyway. The greatest gains to be had from a usability standpoint are in the mid-ranges and most of what you report is at the extreme.

The amount of gain really depends upon how poorly the original Software was written. These Gains are not Made, rather they are found within defficiencies of the original software.

One has to assume that Bosch/Porsche did a pretty poor job, leaving a lot on the Table, in the initial programming to assume that a re-chip can produce substantial gains.

I'm not willing to make that assumption, especially since the engine, in stock form, has such a high Horsepower/Displacement ratio as compared to many, many other Performance cars, including the famed 550 Spyder.

You may find trading $600 for a couple HP and/or Ft.lbs. of Torque (at best, if at all) as a good trade, I do not. And, I think there are many here who feel the same way. I mean that's 3/4 the cost of a new set of tires, or shocks, and such and I think most people with limited funds to spend on a fun car have to look at it this way.

Anything less than a 15HP gain leaves the car essentially as it began. You can say you have 3 more HP, Hooray for you! But that doesn't mean squat in the real world...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Adam

... Your first suspicions that the car is not faster or maybe even slower could very well be correct...

Hi,

That is so true, especially since Memory is fading, his original impressions are likely to be the most accurate...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Bavarian Motorist]

- Bragging rights...mean nothing to me.


- I have an eidetic memory. I have a specific timing in my head of how long it takes me to redline 1st and 2nd gear and what points of the powerband feel like what. This is why I was reporting a possible loss around 4-5k rpm range. I noticed a difference RIGHT THERE. A bad one at that, but then, it may have been due to the temperature increase. Time will tell. I need more days behind the wheel, though I've literally driven ALL DAY both days.


- If I was trying to convince myself that I spent the money well, why didn't I do it in the beginning? The answer to that is simply because I wasn't. I was very skeptical and in fact, I still am unsure. My reports yesterday were good but that doesn't mean they're conclusive and I believe I made that clear.


-

I can't drive my car today (tried to...drove home sideways basically) so I cannot report.



Anyhow...I might drive down to D.C. where it is warmer just to drive my car (family lives there)



I definitely understand the skepticism from you all, however.



Hey, does anyone know if that power v flow intake for the 987 is any good? It looks much smaller than the factory air filter.

[nastyboxster]

I'm running to your defense Bavarian. I think as long as you are happy with the results, then you got your money's worth on the mod. You can check the thread on the bashing I got when I posted my dyno results.

It doesn't matter if you have hard results or not, there will be people on this forum who will still be skeptical about mods.

Keep us updated if you ever dyno it.

[Bavarian Motorist]

I can dyno it for you guys if you think it will help? I mean, I don't have a before dyno to compare to, but I don't mind spending the $$ if it makes you guys happy :P



I owe at least that much to you all

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

I can dyno it for you guys if you think it will help? I mean, I don't have a before dyno to compare to, but I don't mind spending the $$ if it makes you guys happy :P



I owe at least that much to you all

Hi,

A Dyno run without Baseline #s from the same car doesn't give you anything to compare it to.

Individual cars can vary widely in their Dyno numbers. I saw an 8 Peak HP difference between 2 Stock Boxsters (roughly the same mileage, etc.) run back to back on the same Dyno. That's probably more than any possible gain you got from the chip, so comparing your numbers even to a set of stock OEM specs still doesn't make for much comparison. I'd save your money...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[super66]

bav, congrats on your purchase and being happy yourself....listen you can't win here all the time.....I think I just saw that chip in a magazine I randomly got and was going to post on here about it....

The chip I saw claimed HP went from 240 to 254 for the base and a half second drop in 0-60...I was going to mention it to Dr Burton since it claims to take the "s" version to almost 300 horses.....so I say dyno it...I highly doubt your 987 was producing more than 240 so I would say anything above, give yourself a pat on the back......

if you only gained 3 extra hp, then I might still get one to offset the loss in speed if I get the 19 inch replica classics

I don't want SD and the other guys teasin me about having the slowest 987....still one of the funniest things I have read.....

[Bavarian Motorist]

Thank you sir.


The problem w/ a dyno is I believe they measure WHP only. I didn't know what my WHP was so how could I compare to see it now?


Are there any dynos that measure hp somewhere else?

[jinijazz]

Bavarian, contrary to what some say here, I believe your claim.
I don't know about Powerchip or GIAC, but we had a chance to drive one of local owner's REVO'd 986. It was fairly impressive. I noticed some people bash on these chips without ever driving one. Forget opinions from "internet expert" and only listen to the opinions from owners.

Have you heard about "Sprint Booster"? (not for Boxster)
So many negative and nay sayers, but again nobody never had real experience on the product. I contacted one of the owners for test drive and now I can't imagine driving my Mercedes without it. I'm not saying all chips will be like that. Even REVO was not as good as Sprint Booster. You also have to listen to the negative report on GIAC from one of 996 owners(Renntech). Just don't fall into the non owner's guessing games.

Trust what you feel, and enjoy what you have.

[Adam]

Bav, I hope your car is faster and making a lot more hp/tq then it did. I'm not trying to rain on your parade (too much at least). I just put very little stock into people's butt dyno claims whoever that may be. Some people may have no problem basing their decisions off what others say, but me, I like hard factual data that's not biased.

[aussieboxy]

I bought a second hand 2000 986 and the guy I bought it from said that he thought the guy before him had it chipped but he wasn't sure. Is there any way to tell without pluging the ECU into a PC with the software. By that I mean do they put some sort of sticker somewhere?

Thanks

[Bavarian Motorist]

I understand the skepticism.



I have not gotten a chance to really try her today. I dug her out of snow (was a nightmare) but I was afraid of the roads being icy to take her to speed.




Still, feels like there is extra pulling power in 5th gear...shrug.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by jinijazz

Bavarian, contrary to what some say here, I believe your claim.
I don't know about Powerchip or GIAC, but we had a chance to drive one of local owner's REVO'd 986. It was fairly impressive. I noticed some people bash on these chips without ever driving one. Forget opinions from "internet expert" and only listen to the opinions from owners.

Have you heard about "Sprint Booster"? (not for Boxster)
So many negative and nay sayers, but again nobody never had real experience on the product. I contacted one of the owners for test drive and now I can't imagine driving my Mercedes without it. I'm not saying all chips will be like that. Even REVO was not as good as Sprint Booster. You also have to listen to the negative report on GIAC from one of 996 owners(Renntech). Just don't fall into the non owner's guessing games.

Trust what you feel, and enjoy what you have.

Hi,

Haven't you started out claiming exactly what you're chiding other people for doing? Judging without actually driving the car? Just an observation...

I too drove a revo'd '04 'S', side-by-side with an '03 'S' that was stock save for being de-snork'd and didn't find the difference very remarkable at all. In fact, if anything, I'd say that any differences were confined to 4.2k RPM (torque) and 6.2k RPM (HP).

The reason I didn't find it remarkable is that at 4.2k RPM, the car is already 'On Cam' and pulling already, and 6.2k RPM is pretty much restricted to Short Bursts, Freeways, and the Track. I certainly didn't find it worth the $900+ investment. Nor did the '04 owner in the end, he said it condemned him to spending another $3k to maximize the investment he'd already made and at that, you're investing a significant % of the resale value, given how soft pre-owned Boxster prices are.

You may well have had a good experience chipping an MB, but that's so much Apples to Oranges as to be totally non-relevant.

Remember, it isn't how good the Aftermarket Chip is. It's about how much the OEM Software leaves on the Table for the Aftermarket Chip makers to capitalize on. Do you think it's possible that MB purposely gelds the Base Car to prop up the AMG variants, similar to what Porsche did with the Boxster/Cayman vs 911?

So far as the Boxster, the stock HP/Displacement ratio is one of the highest out there, that says to me that with stock Intake and Exhaust, Porsche didn't leave a whole lot on the table for Aftermarket tuners to cash-in on. There's just not that much you can do to an NA car for under $1k, and even then it's limited until you switch to FI.

Also, whether it's Renntech, 986forum, or Flat6.com, there simply aren't too many people raving about the HUGE gains from chipping alone - see: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=8460&st=0&p=41660&#entry41660 or http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4870&st=0&p=24325&#entry24325 and you'll see that a lot of what I'm saying has been echo'd by others as well.

One other issue not really brought up is what chipping the car will do to any warranty, New or Certified Pre-Owned. Anyone entertaining a re-chip who may still be under warranty should read this first: http://treffen.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={396E4407-264B-4199-9576-F50C64C97F2B}

I'm happy the owner is pleased, he can do as he likes with his car and money. My issue is with his unqualified "100%" recommendation to others to run out there are plop down $600 - I just don't think he's made his case...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[jinijazz]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Haven't you started out claiming exactly what you're chiding other people for doing? Judging without actually driving the car? Just an observation...

"I believe his claim based on my experience" is very different from "I claim x whithout driving his car" Just to clarify in case you are confused

Well, i did feel the difference and you didn't. It's all good.
Bav felt it and reported, happy ending no? I want to hear more details.
No need to force or over-worry about other members, since they are smarter than you think.

Nobody claims it was "investment", no argument needed.

Sprint Booster example I took is about people's reaction, was not chipping comparison. (FYI it has nothing to do with chip) So "apple to orange" comparison is your misintepretation.

No offense, but I'm more interested in Bav's experience than the redundant information that we saw every forum. Let him share his experience with us.
That's all.

[Bavarian Motorist]

I am gonna have a decision by Friday.


In fact, I think I'll take her out for a drive now.



I would only recommend the upgrade on the premise of there being a guarantee to return it.


And that there is...for ALL buyers. What's the big deal then?

[Jinster]

I don't want to piss anyone off. Please take no offence as nothing I say below is directed at anyone personally.

I think aftermarket chips definitely changes the data map so that some values are different to factory settings. As to how much improvement this change offers, I think it's best to test it with things like the Apexi RSM or an accelerometer like the Tesla. I used to do back and back testing using those when I was tuning my MX6 turbo. It shows the difference before and after intake and exhaust mods very convincingly. The Boxster, being NA, would show less measurable benefits but should still be demonstratable nonetheless if the chip does what it claims. An Apexi RSM can be had for around $200AUD or a Tesla device for around $90AUD on Ebay. In many ways, these offer more real world measurements (0-100kph, 400m) than dynos.

I own both. And intend to do some testing myself when I start to play with the snorkel removal and header installation later on.

On the issue of chips, here are two articles on an interview with the director of Powerchip in Australia you may find an interesting read.

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/A_0402/page1.html
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_0408/article.html

[Bavarian Motorist]

I read the whole interview.


Wow, that interviewer sure did ask him TOUGH questions. No mercy.




After driving my car today, I'm not sure what to think. I'm leaning towards asking for my $$ back because it just doesn't seem like a huge difference, if any.


Better throttle response I admit. Better in 3rd gear for sure (but for some reason, doesn't feel better in 1st or 2nd)



I'm leaning against it now...but I'll see.

[Jinster]

Can't imagine that interview doing much for his business, can you?