Unauthorized DE pass.. Black Flag?

[P_Carfahrer]

My esteemed track addicts, I had an episode on track this weekend at the UMC PCA DE event where I came up on a 987 CaymanS pretty fast in a big braking zone coming in to Black Rock Hairpin. The Cayman in front of me totally missed the apex and slowed very suddenly which was very unexpected for me and happened very quickly. With the Cayman so out of shape and on a way outside line, with how quick it happened, I just completed the pass against the DE passing guidelines on where to pass and without a point by as required in the run group.

I did not receive a Black Flag as expected and confessed my 'sin' to the club directors after the session and had a conversation with the instructor that was in the Cayman.

To be transparent, was it feasible to stay behind the Cayman as expected in this situation? I would have had to immediately hit the brakes hard mid corner to stay behind and feel it would have disrupted my car balance and potentially also gotten me out of shape with who knows what consequences. However, the Cayman could have turned in to me as I came by because I did not receive a point by.

I am conflicted on what else I could have done differently than what I did. Should I have not gotten so close coming into the corner? What do you all think?

Here is the video of the episode.

https://youtu.be/OLO423i0bM0

[JayG]

First off, safety trumps everything else

IMHO, the other car slowed down and went off line. Which often denotes a problem. That being the case your "pass" made sense. Nothing wrong with closing on another car on the track.

I most likely would have done exactly what you did.

What did the club directors and the other instructor say?

[986tate]

He’s so far off line, I think it was the sensible, safe thing to do

[husker boxster]

I totally agree with Jay. From a safety standpoint, that was the proper move. It's one thing if they were holding you up and you were frustrated with them not letting you by and you took advantage of a perceived opening without a point by. But someone suddenly slowing and going offline is totally different and justifiable to pass.

I had an interesting and sort of similar situation at Indy in 2020. I was in an open passing run group but we were forbidden to pass in T1 & T7. I was heading down the back straight towards T7. At the start of the straight, someone had given me a point by. I was completing that pass when the next car gave me a point by. By this time I didn't think I could get the pass safely made before we got to the corner, so I didn't take the pass. However, the car assumed I was going to pass so they went offline in T7 and slowed way down. Nothing I could do, esp with cars behind me, but to make the pass in the middle of the turn. I assumed we would both be black flagged and talked to. I kept a sharp eye on the black flag corner worker but after 2 laps of no flag I figured I wasn't going to be called in. I certainly deserved to be flagged and I was going to tell them the car in front offered the pass but I didn't intend to take it. I don't think that car was flagged either.

[MaxD]

You absolutely did the right thing. You stayed on your line, did a minor adjustment to your line mid corner to keep him well away and that was the right call.

We generally only black flag drivers for egregious violations of passing rules (including not giving point by's), consistent bad behavior or a four wheel off.

[P_Carfahrer]

Originally Posted by JayG

What did the club directors and the other instructor say?

That is kind of the reason I posted this here. The club directors, though I don't remember if you Max were part of the discussion, were not too concerned about it.

The instructor in the other car, who I know well, and who is part of the reason I am out on the track now as he invited me a number of years ago to come down and hang out with his race team over a number of weekends (he has run 996/997 cup cars in NASA GTSU and ST1) was not so understanding.

After the session, I tried to find the other driver but could not find the car in the paddock/garage area. The instructor found me and reiterated the requirement to pass only in designated areas and with the point by.

I sent him the same video directly later than night and asked if I really could have done anything different and he said again I should have waited for another time and backed off as I really surprised the other driver coming through like that. I really like and respect the instructor so I was more than a little confused by his comments after he viewed the footage of the pass.

[JayG]

I think the general consensus is you did no wrong.
The other care was not acting normal and it was a safe pass

[MaxD]

Originally Posted by JayG

I think the general consensus is you did no wrong.
The other car was not acting normal and it was a safe pass

Exactly, the other car almost came to a full stop mid corner, so who has the safety issue here.

If he would have spun and you did the same thing, you would have exhibited the correct judgement for the situation.

[The Radium King]

i don't buy it.

get on the brakes and stop if you have to.

i saw something very similar go down in front of me (have video but can't upload?).

fast corner, slightly off-camber.

vette spun on turn out.

miata was right behind and came up on him hot. miata didn't want to brake and be stuck sitting in the middle of a corner and exposed to the traffic behind.

miata decided to pass the vette but was unsuccessful. two cars totalled.

follow the rules.

[JayG]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

i don't buy it.

get on the brakes and stop if you have to.

i saw something very similar go down in front of me (have video but can't upload?).

fast corner, slightly off-camber.

vette spun on turn out.

miata was right behind and came up on him hot. miata didn't want to brake and be stuck sitting in the middle of a corner and exposed to the traffic behind.

miata decided to pass the vette but was unsuccessful. two cars totalled.

follow the rules.

Stop in the middle of the track??
All my track rat buds that I showed the video and post to said the same thing, it was a safe pass given the situation. None of them would have stopped on the track for a car that slowed down significantly and deliberately moved off the line

For a car spinning, that's a different situation

[The Radium King]

slow down, stop. whatever it takes. it doesn't matter if he slowed down, spun, or got out and had a picnic. without a signal don't pass. follow the rules. don't worry about who's behind you, as long as he's following the rules you'll be ok. if i can't trust the other guys on the track to follow the rules, then i may be tempted to not follow the rules myself in order to avoid the other guys that are not following the rules. then it all breaks down. chaos. cats and dogs living together.

mebbe this will work ...

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgB7dLY3uFssuQhLyTk1oYsdlJZ2

[ike84]

I think when all ends well, people are much more forgiving. Trk's point is an excellent one though. If the cayman corrected his course suddenly and was not expecting you to be passing, it may have ended in disaster for both of you. Or maybe the cayman blew a tire and wound up spinning out after hard breaking, sending his rear end out and potentially in to you. I don't think anyone would be forgiving of an illegal pass in those circumstances. If you were trying to avoid an imminent collision in such circumstances, I think that would be different, but I didn't get that feeling from the video.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk

[JayG]

That incident is very different. Looks like the spinning car didn't follow the basic thing to do in a spin.
"In a spin, Both feet in and come to a complete stop"

The 2 cars were much closer together and the Mazda was braking. His reaction time was a little slow. The Mazda could have driven straight onto the grass

[The Radium King]

Originally Posted by JayG

That incident is very different. Looks like the spinning car didn't follow the basic thing to do in a spin.
"In a spin, Both feet in and come to a complete stop"

The 2 cars were much closer together and the Mazda was braking. His reaction time was a little slow. The Mazda could have driven straight onto the grass

very similar situations. in both examples:

- no-one had any idea what the lead car was going to do.
- lead car did not expect following car to pass.
- the only person who broke any rules was the car with the illegal pass.

the only difference is one situation ended poorly and one did not. in my example the car that tried the pass was invited to leave and not return.

[The Radium King]

ps, if you want to see where the miata learned his bad habit (and got lucky) here's a video from earlier in the day ...

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgB7dLY3uFssuRKJBZ7amY3ZbiYj

[JayG]

Completely disagree with you

in both spins, it was not a pass, but avoiding (or trying to avoid) a spun car on the track.

That was not a bad habit but good driving, avoiding the spun car. Its unlikely the Miata could have stopped in that distance, especially in a corner and likely had the Miata locked it up the car behind would have rearended it

in the first case, it was a car that was having a problem and got off the line to allow the rest of the pack to safely get by. Stopping on the track would have caused a much bigger danger than safely passing.

Yes rules are rules., but rules also allow for driver judgement in other than normal situations. As a driver you have an obligation to prevent contact with another car. Point by passing is for passing zones, and its likely that the car that slowed and moved over, the driver was dealing with their problem and since it was a corner, a point by was the last thing they were thinking of.

As an instructor, I would have my student get off the line if having a problem to get out of the way of other cars, and off the track if possible and hopefully a corner worker would throw the yellow or if really bad, red flag

[The Radium King]

Originally Posted by JayG

in the first case, it was a car that was having a problem and got off the line to allow the rest of the pack to safely get by. Stopping on the track would have caused a much bigger danger than safely passing.

i gave up my career in mind reading when i realised i couldn't read minds. in the op's case i have no idea why that car was doing what it was doing. was it getting off-line to let him by? then where was the point-by? perhaps he was having a stroke? obviously he was having some kind of issue and driving erratically. so - good idea to introduce more variables? increase the risk? pass him unknowingly?

the fact that there was no point-by is a good indication of a new driver lacking situational awareness. again - good idea to sneak up beside him in a corner?

ps, he didn't stop, he slowed down. so slow down. nobody is stopping in the middle of the track here (unlike the examples i posted). if there was time for the op to apologize then there was time to get on the brakes. sorry no warm fuzzies from me; i agree with the instructor.

[P_Carfahrer]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

he didn't stop, he slowed down. so slow down. nobody is stopping in the middle of the track here (unlike the examples i posted). if there was time for the op to apologize then there was time to get on the brakes. sorry no warm fuzzies from me; i agree with the instructor.

I said sorry after I was already through and because I believe in following the rules and had broken the letter of the rule. Because of me being a rule person I tend to side with TRK and my instructor friend and even drove me to come clean with the directors even though I had not been flagged. However, I still have a hard time thinking I could/should have done anything different. Should I have? Based on the differing opinions, that is debatable. Could I have safely done something else without significantly increasing the risk? Having been in the driver's seat actually experiencing it, I don't thing so.

The Cayman slowed so abruptly that about 1.5 seconds passed and I was already door to door and carrying much more speed. At best, factoring in reaction time in this unexpected event, had I hit the brakes, I would have slowed at best to be at their side through the corner, making the possibility of the other driver turning into my side, or if I had slowed down a bit more, coming across my nose, much higher. At worst, hitting the brakes hard mid corner may have caused me to understeer right into the Cayman door or oversteer into a spin myself.

The miata had at least six seconds from the start of the Vette spin to impact. It is interesting that the car following the miata also didn't slow. Could the Miata have slowed/stopped in time to avoid contact? It seemed to me that the driver let off the brakes slightly thinking the Vette was sliding to the inside and they could get through to the outside. The Vette though obviously did not have both feet in and came came back across the track closing that window.

The lesson I will take from this, with the understanding that I am running in groups without a lot of experience, myself included, is to not allow myself to close so quickly coming into a corner. I should not have run up their tailpipe off a big braking zone coming into a hairpin. I could see I was coming up fast on the Cayman from quite a way off and should have slowed earlier to maintain more space coming into the hairpin.

[The Radium King]

well, i was the guy following the miata. all my attention was on him and getting past him, so i was late in seeing the spinning vette in front of him. as a result i offed in the rhubarb and when all the pieces stopped moving i carried on. our flag guys are quick and sight lines into the corner were good for upcoming traffic.

in the situation where i spun the corner is blind (albeit slow - a chicane) and both cars were justified in using the pass for 'situation avoidance'. i get that.

in the op's case i probably would have done the same thing. and i would have been wrong. i would have thought about it afterwards, discussed it, hopefully learned from it. just like op is doing. kudos.

i got taught to drive as fast as you can afford. if you have the reaction time to follow right up a tailpipe then do it - it's fun. if you don't then don't. situational awareness will give you clues - are you pressuring him by following too close - is he getting loose on turnout or making mistakes? is he not giving immediate pointbys indicating he's a novice (or full or testosterone and idiocy)? braking early? missing lines? are you at the beginning or end of the sprint (ie, what condition are tires and brakes in)?

ultimately, if you want to pass in corners then get a race licence. they'll teach you avoidance maneuvers as well. but think about this: you could have stood on the brakes and slowed in time, but were probably worried about the pack behind you - consequence of a rear-end collision - not the end of the world - street cars are designed for front and rear collision (crumple zones, engineered understeer). however, if he had spun or turned in in front of you - consequences of you t-boning him - potentially fatal. that's why cars that do uncontrolled passing have cages and door bars.

[PaulE]

It's a tough one, FWIW I think you did the right thing in your situation, even though you didn't follow the rules. Did the instructor in the other car tell you why his student driver went off line and slowed down?

Originally Posted by P_Carfahrer

That is kind of the reason I posted this here. The club directors, though I don't remember if you Max were part of the discussion, were not too concerned about it.

The instructor in the other car, who I know well, and who is part of the reason I am out on the track now as he invited me a number of years ago to come down and hang out with his race team over a number of weekends (he has run 996/997 cup cars in NASA GTSU and ST1) was not so understanding.

After the session, I tried to find the other driver but could not find the car in the paddock/garage area. The instructor found me and reiterated the requirement to pass only in designated areas and with the point by.

I sent him the same video directly later than night and asked if I really could have done anything different and he said again I should have waited for another time and backed off as I really surprised the other driver coming through like that. I really like and respect the instructor so I was more than a little confused by his comments after he viewed the footage of the pass.