Worth it to 'check' IMS bearing during clutch? Clutch recommendations?
 

Hi folks,

Newer 986 owner here. The car is a 99, and has had the IMS bearing done (or at least, claimed to have been done, there's an IMS bearing sticker in the boot lid).

My clutch is starting to slip, is it worth it to have the shop pull the bearing to check condition? Will the bearing puller damage the bearing/will this risk ruining it in some capacity? The car currently has 160k miles.

Also -- any heavy duty clutch or flywheel recommendations? The car will see track duty and generally will generally get driven aggressively.

Thanks!

If you remove the IMS bearing, it is toast and cannot be reused. Pulling it destroys the races and ball cages.

Recall reading somewhere that some folks in the UK are removing the IMSB flange and outer seal to inspect the bearing without pulling it, and if ok, allowing oil to more freely circulate around it after reinstalling the flange.

I'm not advocating this approach since I don't know much about it (and I chose to replace my bearing, which I found to be in near-perfect condition after pulling it). As you know there's a healthy debate out there about oil from the sump and whether or not it's adequate to lubricate an open bearing without a direct, pressurized feed.

But worth looking into and deciding for yourself before you replace the clutch...

As JFP in PA said once you pull the IMS bearing it can't be reused. I would think that if the last owner replaced the IMSB already, you should be good to go, and I wouldn't have it replaced while you're having a new clutch installed.

Brian :)

My Porsche YouTube Videos: https://youtu.be/ZSmehtE8Ctk

Awesome, thanks folks. I think you just saved me a bearing or failure.


Looks like the Spec clutches are the new defacto 'go to' for heavier applications. I'm leaning on the stage 3 w/ lightened flywheel unless someone posts pushing me otherwise.

Any thoughts on having an additional strap added to the clutch>

You don`t need to pull out the bearing for a simple inspection. After removing the flange you can rotate the bearing and can check for play. If it`s running smooth and with not much play you are good to go. You can even press the small shaft into the IMS, you can easily pull it back on using a telescopic magnet. Then you have a bit more room to inspect the bearing. You can stick your finger or a small piece of rag into the hole and see what you got. If you find oil and no metal debris, there`s not much to worry about.

I think that is the third gen IMS, sure as heck not the first two generations. And yours should be the fist gen. Dual row. Given the miles on the car, any idea the miles on the car when the bearing was done? If an LN sticker, they may be able to tell you.

Unsure, but I should call LN with the number and see what the date was Do these bearings 'wear out'?

Is this applicable to 99?

Yes, all IMSBs wear out. It's just a matter of when. If you're going to track the car, then perhaps you should install LN's IMS Solution. It's the most bullet proof of them all.

Just for clarity...the car already has LN's IMS Solution, installed by one of the previous owners at unknown mileage.

Are you suggesting to preventively reinstall another?

Otherwise, what mileage are they good for?

I think it is. Mine is a `99 Boxster with a dual row bearing. I have an engine rebuild thread in show&tell, you can find pictures there if you want to compare.

Is it crazy to just replace the IMS bearing whenever you replace the clutch? Since you're "in there" it may be worth the additional peace of mind. I know it adds another $700 or so to the price of the job but that seems like pretty inexpensive insurance.

Mine has the LN solution (sticker + install records) but are they truly a "lifetime" replacement?

That's what they claim, but they only guarantee it for 5 years. :rolleyes:

To answer your question, yes, the IMS Solution is a permanent replacement, it never has to be replaced. This is just one of the reasons this retrofit is popular with Tiptronic owners.

Which is actually longer than the warranty Porsche gave on your entire car when it was brand new.

LN can tell you what their records indicate the bearing is. I had a Single Row Pro (dual row replacement for a single row OEM bearing) installed in my car by my shop at 42k miles. It failed at 77k miles. When I contacted LN, Charles Navarro said the number on my install sticker indicated the bearing was made before the Single Row Pro was introduced and that it was a single row bearing. My shop receipt said the LN bearing was the dual row Single Row Pro, and the shop owner showed me the remnants of the failed bearing and said it was dual row, so I left it at that. The remnants went back to LN for analysis and I never bothered to try and find out from them whether my replacement bearing was in fact dual or single row.

I now have the IMS Solution. I would say it is as permanent as the engine's crank main bearings. Based on my experience of one failed IMSB upgrade, I would recommend periodic replacement of any splash/mist lubricated ball or roller bearing IMSB on some periodic basis.

Point taken, but I don't recall Porsche claiming their car is the "permanent solution" for your car needs. Do you?

If they claim it's the "permanent solution", they should put their money where their mouth is and make it a lifetime warranty. They charge enough for the item. That's all I'm saying.

They do warranty it for unlimited miles, but you better get those unlimited miles in within 5 years. :D

They know that for most people these aren't their daily drivers, so they threw the unlimited miles warranty in there to make it look good, but knowing full well that most cars will get far less than 50k in those 5 years.

I'm not taking anything away from the product, but why not just guarantee it forever? Most likely something else will blow up the engine anyway.

Simple: It would be a bad business decision. If Porsche would only give you a prorated 4 year warrantee on a $60K + purchase, why should someone offer you a lifetime warrantee on a less than $2K purchase. At the end of the day, you don't have to buy their products if you can find anything with a better warrantee than they offer. To my knowledge, most of the "me too" retrofits don't even approach what LN offers.

Nothing last's forever, Craftsman tools lifetime warranty is part of what sent Sears into bankruptcy !

Many companies offer lifetime warranties for items costing much less than that. Snap-on tools, Delta faucets, Raybestos brakes, ect. etc.

When they charge $1850 for a kit that cost them less than $100 to manufacture (yes, I understand a percentage goes for R&D, but not THAT much), and call it a "permanent solution" they should put their money where their mouth is.

If they won't ever fail then it wouldn't be a bad business decision, would it? They already pre-qualify the health of the engine before the "solution" gets installed, and only honor their current warranty if it is installed by an authorized mechanic, so DIYers are shut out. After all that, why would it be a bad business decision to offer a lifetime warranty?

EPS offers the same warranty as LN, but their product is less than 1/3 the cost of the LN "solution." And they don't void the warranty if an DIYer installs it.

I actually believe that the LN Solution may be a better product, so I'm not here to argue which is better. But at more than 3 times the cost, they should offer much, much better warranty, IMO.

Craftsman has been offering a lifetime warranty for decades, that's not what caused Sears to go bankrupt. If it was the case, Lowe's, NAPA and other retailers wouldn't have taken on the brand afterwards.

The warranty is only good for 5 years, regardless of mileage.

Yes, it will outlive your engine.

The IMS Solution does not need to be replaced, ever.

You state that with such confidence, and you're most likely correct, but why doesn't the actual manufacturer have the same confidence and offer a lifetime warranty instead of just a 5 year?

Repeat of post 25.

Simple: They don't have to. They have done their homework, patented the design, and have the reputation with more than 25,000 units successfully installed.

Actually, from their own website, only "...3,000 IMS Solutions installed since 2008".

https://lnengineering.com/products/ims-bearing-kits-for-porsche-m96-97-engines/ims-solution/ims-solution-for-single-row-ims-my00-05.html

Of course they've sold other products, but we're talking about the "IMS Solution."

Like I said, I'm sure it's a great product and I'm not trying to take anything away from it or from you. I have a great deal of respect for you and your vast knowledge on these cars. :cheers:

But you seem to have more confidence in it than LN Engineering does.

That sounds like a better warranty than Porsche's standard powertrain warranty.

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Yes, but Porsche never claimed that the car was a "permanent solution" ;)

I have $45 brake pads on my Subaru with a better warranty.

I think Im right there with you Piper. Do the math and the numbers for revenue with LN, RND, IMSolution (same people?) around this bearing and its staggering. R & D really isnt an issue. They are modifying a flange that has already been engineered. A buddy (career car engineer but still) in Detroit sourced 25 dollar bearings (yep, 25 dollars for the double row, or 70 for ceramic doublerow) and would make modified flanges on a lathe to fix a few race cars back in the day. None of them failed. His words: "Its a simple problem, mounting a bearing, please."
The power of volume makes the cost of manufacture for these kits against the retail price LN et. al. charges opportunistic. IMHO, they took advantage of the community and should be fabulously wealthy from it. Im not mad about it, but dont like to see folks taken advantage of either by fear that has in part been propagated by those with the most to gain. and gain they did. They could have insured the solution with underwriting for pennies.

Actually they did (indirectly) as Porsche considered the IMS was a 'Non Serviceable Item' which (by the way) you could not buy from them by itself.
.

This is so well-stated. Some have bristled when I've suggested there's an agenda behind most of the "help" they offer to the community, even when seemingly unrelated to their products. This is a more overt example.

Personally, I find it offensive that they continue to suggest that "they" (their little circle) are the only ones qualified to work on these cars, or modify, or tune. And those who aren't in that circle but who've "bought into the myth" remind me of the lambs in the back yard who follow my wife around everywhere just hoping she'll pat them on the head.

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"Indirectly" is the operative word there. LN is quite direct in their claim of "permanent solution." And Porsche is correct, it is a non-serviceable item. No bearing is serviceable.

I haven't tried buying one off Porsche, but my guess is that it's sold with the IMS as an assembly. It's not uncommon for manufacturers to only sell certain parts as part of an assembly.

Yes, I've found quality Japanese bearings for under $20 (single row). They're not special, they are actually quite common in size. I haven't found the ceramic ones yet, but if Burner did, they're out there.

But to give LN some credit, they made (At least I don't think they source) a plain bearing which is far better than a ball or cylindrical bearing. And I have no doubt it's a quality product. But damn, at that price, stand behind it for more than 5 years.

Besides, everyone says that the real problem is lubrication, anyway. Even LN says that. So it really doesn't matter if it's a ball, cylindrical or plain bearing, because the loads on it are well below their ratings.

Either way, when I can source a replacement motor for around $4,000, I doubt I'd buy the "Solution" at that price even if they guaranteed it for life. Because chances are something else could blow up my engine. It's a crap shoot.

If you want us to believe it's the permanent solution, warranty it as such. It's just the principle of the thing, you know?

Guys, I only try to educate people about the available technology for the vehicle based upon my direct experience with it; at the end of the day, it is your car and your money. If you want to buy a $20 IMS bearing because you do not like the way someone else warrantees theirs, be my guest, no one is holding a gun you your head to make you purchase something else.......................

We live in the world with accounting rules. As soon as LN extends the warranty, the accountants rules will cause them to hold a higher reserve for warranty repairs. Thus not as much profit and/or not as much money to invest in the next product. Eventually the IMS buys will dry up.

Having talked to the inventors, they have high confidence that the probable lifetime is ...

Heck, most of their dual rows are now beyond the 5 year point and I don't see any of the 5 forums I visit daily filled with tales of woe.

If I were making this choice, if I were investing in lots of preventative measures inside the engine, no doubt which I'd specify.

If I were to look hard at my situation and only see the car staying with me for 3-5 years it would be a different choice.

28 other failure points and driver error can total the car for practical purposes.

and do the math...30K plus units at 900 - 1900 dollars? Add it up! Ive wondered if one of them would pop up and try to defend themselves with stories of research and development costs, but that is fiction. This wasn't solution development, it's an adjustment to existing engineering.

JFP, I speak for everyone cool, we appreciate your weigh-in, intellect, experience and time. Thanks. BTL

Accounting rules? They aren't publically traded, and they don't need cash reserve for warranty even if they were. If they extended the warranty, they would buy insurance; they even have a cost-positive option with offering insurance as an add-on. given the stated track record, insurance companies would consider this free money.
invest in next product? They are dealers for various manufacturers and automotive fabricators. They didnt "invent" anything when it comes to the IMS retrofit.

Smiles

JFP says it best. It's your choice to spend your money with whatever developer you want. Factor in the their various warranties into your price calculations, but there is little value in bemoaning the developers' business decisions.