Gold Flakes in Oil and Age of Motor?
 

So I just changed the oil for the second time since owning the car. First oil change, 3k miles and 1 year ago, things looked pretty normal, even the filter was free of debris.

Today I changed the oil, cut open the filter and found about 20 specks the look like gold flakes. About .5mm in diameter average. A sample flake is in the left half of this picture.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1585770593.jpg

So, I know these engines new cost their weight in gold, but I know they're not made of gold, so I'm thinking I'm looking at brass. I looked at the drain pan, and saw flakes there, too. But it it wasn't a clean pan to start with, so I can't be sure it came from this particular motor. I did change the oil in my Town & Country and my Subaru last week, but don't remember seeing any flakes. But then again, both have high miles, 194K in the Subaru and 134K in the T&C, so I can't rule out that it came from them either. Sorry, I didn't take pics of the drain pan.

So, to all those who rebuild these motors, what's made of brass? Bearings? Lifters?

Also, I also found out that this is a factory replacement motor. I've seen somewhere that you can decode the age of the motor, but I can't find it anymore. Does anyone know when this factory replacement motor was built? The car is a 2002, so it would be newer than that, right? Serial number is M96/22AT65265200. I have no maintenance records for this car.

Thanks in advance.

I used teh Google and found this:
Not much help.

Phenominal.

Ha! thanks anyway. I also found that some bearings are made of a copper/lead alloy. I guess that can have a gold look to it. If that's the case with these motors, then I'm looking at a bearing issue. :(

I can see them using that much gold in the electronics, but not inside the motor.

M96/22AT65265200

After the "AT", the 6 indicates it is a six cylinder, the 5 is the engine version number, and the 2 indicates it is a 2002 engine. As such, it is the single row 2002 IMS version.

Gold flakes in the motor (if metallic) are typically from your bearing shells. "Sparkles" I'd consider normal-ish, depending on the mileage of the motor. But flakes I think I'd be more concerned about. Especially if they keep coming.

Any chance they're silica, not metallic? 0.5mm is not much to tell from. If they're flattened like flakes, they're almost certainly metallic.


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Thank you. Funny, because it's a 2002 car, and it has a replacement motor which was also build in 2002? Must have been a really, really early failure.

Thank you. I doubt they are silica. They were quite shiny under the light. So, yes, I'm fearing the worst.

I'm not sure which I'd consider them, sparkles or flakes. The car has 93K on it, but at some point the motor was replaced. I'm just wondering what's in there that has a gold/brass color. I'm guessing it could be from the bearings. If so, I'll have to decide whether it's worth having the motor rebuilt or keep driving it until it blows up and then put in another motor.

This is what a serious problem really looks like:

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02/Eng11585783606.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02/Eng21585783626.jpg

Whoa! That IS serious! I hope it's not yours.

Anyway, I'm leaning towards driving it for another 1 or 2 K miles are check it again. At the rate I'm going, it may take me until the end of Summer to drive it 2k miles, anyway. :(

Yes, that was from one of my earlier engines.I am on Engine #5. Racing will find all of the weak spots.

I hope that your filter is nice and clean on the next check!

Thanks, bud! At least you seem to get the most fun out of yours. :cheers:

I don't know about the history of mine, but we've only had it on the track once last year. I signed up my wife for DE.

I think you have worn thru the lead layer of some rod bearings & starting on the copper layer, that's the last layer of defense for the connecting rods. Once the rod is worn oversize it will start knocking & they are not rebuildible but they will ruin the crankshaft.

Thank you, I think you may be right. I had a hunch it was the copper alloy from the bearings. But I wasn't sure if these bearings were made of a copper alloy or not. When I can get a replacement motor for less than $4k, it's probably not worth doing anything about it now, right?

Like I said earlier, I'm probably going to drive it for another one or two k miles and check it again.

Hopefully you have some oil available to ship to Blackstone labs,..they may have some insight on the metals in your engine,.I hope its Minor wear and tear.!

Thanks, flmont. Unfortunately, I've already dropped it off at to the recycler. :o

I'll drive it for a few thousand miles and see what it looks like then.

Yea..I hated to state a obvious next step,..I send my oil to those guys every3-4 K miles when I change it,,.I also usally use the filter canister oil..not sure if that's smart but that's where all the metals are I assume..!:confused:

I don't see why it would be any different than the rest of the oil. How much do you have to send in and how much does it cost?

It's like $30 or something, and it's an awesome tool. And sorta nerd- fun too.

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oh about 1/2 to 3/4's of a cup and around 30 -35 dollars they mail u a container fill the sample bottle and mail it back in about a week they E-M U a report,..of metals content anti-freeze percentages ,if you have water mixed in,..even as far as a sodium content,..my last 2 reports were of average wear and seem to be running just fine,they didn't find that many pollutants in the oil..worth the the 35.00 bucks I paid for the info..Call or EM them and they will send you a kit,..Frank

If you pull it now before the rods & then Crankshaft are junk it will be some what economical to rebuild. Or you can go the route of replacing the engine every few years & never having one that's 100%.

Roughly how much would a standard rebuild be? Just stock parts, nothing built up?

This is the format for a Blackstone report.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1585980356.jpg

Thank you. Is that yours? Looks like a very clean bill of health! :cheers:

You will need at least 2 good rods & most likely a whole set of rod bearings & ARP rod bolts. A gasket set is about $300, ARP rod bolts $160, bearings $125., Rods ?? You are looking around $1,000 minimum since you want to do whatever you can while you are in there. Plus labor!!

Rings?
Are these cylinders nikasil'd, Or should they be honed?


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Maytag, I believe the cylinders are coated with Lokasil (sadly Not Nikasil) and the concern is that they may be 'oval' not round.

Ideally would be to get the LN Nickies but they would increase the cost of the rebuilt..
.

Haven't yet you noticed ****stick is ignoring our inquiries?

Thanks.


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If you have no scoring, and decent ring seal, then you can refresh an m96 fairly cheaply. It wont be perfect but should extend the life a good while

Update:
The flakes aren't gold, as I previously stated, but silver. The oil on them made them appear gold :o

I went back and looked carefully at the drain pan and I took a magnet with me. The flakes are indeed ferrous.

So, could it still be rod bearings? Or maybe is the the IMS bearing ready to go? It has the single-row bearing.

At this point, oil analysis is still probably your best course of action. I'd also recommend a filter magnet or magnetic drain plug in the mean time to snatch up any ferrous material that gets loose in the oil. Pull the filter and take a peek as inspired between oil changes. Filters are cheap and swapping out a filter just takes a few minutes and barely any oil.

Note my signature, but I would not be seriously worried about the engine yet. Most people never even get a look at the oil in their cars and most oil changes will have some degree of trace particles.

...and get a look at this thread:
http://986forum.com/forums/diy-project-guides/51025-diy-magnetic-oil-filtering-2.html

After it was first posted, I did that to all my 986s and it has worked well.

Thank you! I'll definitely try the magnets. I'll do an oil analysis on my next oil change.

Thank you all for your input!