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Gauging Interest: Turbo Kit
Hello,
We are doing some R&D work on a Boxster turbo kit. Without going into too much detail, this is a quick summary: *easy to bolt up turbo kit that will fit the 2.5/2.7 and most likely the S models. (still more R&D to come on fitment) *turbo will be a quick spooling ball bearing unit, about 6 psi *should be smog legal in 49 states *liquid-to-air intercooled *225-250 whp Depending on what the community wants, we will tailor the final product: Eg: not intercooled -- low psi/no intercooler/lower gains / more affordable intercooled -- higher psi/liquid intercooled/ high gains/ more costly |
I say intercooled. If I'm going to spend the money, might as well do it right and get the most power.
Nice to see another Seattle person on here. -David |
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Same to you. Blake Race By Design www.myspace.com/racebydesign |
bumping this thread. Should I put it in the performance section?
Would a 12 second Boxster be considered "performance" :p |
Assuming the kit meets your objectives, I can tell you a few things without a poll :
1. At $500 everybody will want one. 2. At $5,000 a few people will want one. 3. At $10,000 nobody will want one. |
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Thank you for the input. I had the same thing in mind. It seems there are two kits on the market currently. One utilizing a MP62 Eaton Supercharger (non intercooled), which is pretty small for even a 2.5 4-valve engine. Tuning on this is done via a Split-Second piggyback. The other uses a Procharger C-1 (non-intercooled) with a reflashed ECU via GIAC software. No doubt its the better choice for upper rpm power. A properly sized turbo should match the C-1 at the top end and destroy it in the midrange. I cant talk too bad about these units, Procharger's internal oil sump is a great design. I just with they didnt generate so much belt/blower squeal at idle. A great match for my business partner's 1988 5.0 track car...but it's quite embarrassing when showing up at the golf course in a Porsche. An Eaton, while a great drivable setup, couldnt touch a similar turbo system. With an intercooler in the mix, the intake charge will be lower than the C-1 and MUCH lower than the MP62. I dont hate positive displacement blowers, my business partner's Focus SVT is pushing over 200 very streetable whp with a Jackson Racing MP62. The thing that is most appealing for the Porsche crowd is that a good exhaust system will cost you a small fortune. When your done with the headers, cats, pipes, and tips you could have bought a full turbo system for another $500-1k. Please keep up the great feedback. It's invaluable to us. Blake Race By Design www.myspace.com/racebydesign |
Turbo Kit
I would be interested in a modestly priced kit that provided modest performance improvements. That means my vote would be having a unit without an intercooler.
I just posted a note about a dyno run I did with my 2000 2.7L Boxster that has a TTP intake and performance chip. I am making about 198 hp with that rig, but it was expensive, over 2K for the chip and intake and installed. I would like to be able to massage a little more performance out of my engine without breaking the bank. I also like the response characteristics of a supercharger instead of a turbocharger, but I cannt take the noise of any of the supercharger units I have heard. I have considered getting headers and high-flow cats, but as you say, that is a very expensive way to go to pick up a few hp, if any, just my 2 cents, Ed 2000 2.7L Boxster 50K |
Hi,
A turbo kit on the Boxster is fraught with problems, mainly heat. Mid-engine cars don't dissipate heat like a front mount engine does. Also, why don't you quit trying to hock your kit for free and pay sponsor fees? We have sponsors who pay to display to us and keep this site running. You're freeloading - pay or go away... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
I have always wondered how the Boxster engines would hold up to a Turbo or SC. As far as I can see, they have not been designed to withstand the extra forces of one.
Personally, I would not chance on my Boxster. |
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Probably because I dont have a kit yet. Until its available for purchase its vaporware. Once I have properly gauged the market I will glady pay fees to start downpayments, preorders, or purchases, etc. It is simply an inquirery. If you would rather I leave and not "impose" on the boxster community with a solution to a problem I could do that as well. When/if this goes into production (I should know at the end of this week) I will glady pay royalties where due. I understand your frustration from a viewer stance, but please put yourself in our shoes. If a moderator sees this as a shameless plug for revenue I believe they should shut it down and ban me. Until that point, I just want to see if there is ANY desire for such a kit so as to put forth $30+ thousand in R&D work and preproduction. Sincerely, Blake Erven Race By Design PS: I drive a MR2 Spyder and with a corolla 1.8 people have made upwards of 240 whp from "kits" with stock bottom ends. If you call running high 12's with cast pathetic pistons a problem I am confused. PPS: The expense of fabricating a liquid-to-air intercooler is our testement to understanding the situation. As of now this is the ONLY unit in existance that may have an intercooler (let alone a water-to-air). |
Blake, thanks for posting your R&D question on this forum. I do not share Jim's opinion on this issue, and if you were trying to scam some free advertising, the ever-present and vigilant owners of the list would be all over you like white on rice.
I am a potential turbo/sc kit buyer. I'm leaning toward the SC kit put out by Imagine Auto but like the other poster stated, the noise that these bolt-on induction systems make is annoying at the very least, making me rethink the 3.4 liter engine upgrade path as well. |
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Your killing me, the roots type barely whines which by the way makes me mad. I want more whine. I just love that sound. |
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I am a large fan of SC kits as well. I like the fact that you leave the exhaust side alone and dont have to tap the oil pan. The idea of a turbo unit yields a possibly easier install/upgradability and that is why we are leaning in that direction. Once we get some preliminary ideas of where this might be going from the rest of our designers, costs, etc we might sway in that direction. One of my questions is how universal our system will be with the other Porsche engines (eg: the 987 3.2 and those looking to do the 3.4 swap). If its a matter of clicking a different exhaust manifold and turbo size that would be very appealing. I dont believe in putting together hobgoblin turbo kits and if we cant come to a concise vision I will probably push to R&D a Rotrex supercharger kit. Still using low psi, this centrifugal based supercharger is almost dead quiet with only a bit of a chirp from the relief valve between shifts. The nice thing is the self-contained lubrication system and the extreme efficiency chart. These are basically belt driven turbos that spin upwards of 250k rpm. Still, I wont know until some of the math is done which option makes more sense from an engineering aspect. Our co-designer is located in Calgary, Alberta. They have asked me a few times if I have a Boxster, or know of one that does to aid in the R&D work. I will check in at the end of the week as this progresses but if anyone is interested in this we can either pay outright or work a very generous donation program for the test subject (aka: nearly free boost). I will update this as I get them. My thanks to the Boxster community for at least the attention to the subject. I believe that even throwing ideas around is never in vain. Keep waxing those S2000's in the meanwhile. Sincerely, Blake Erven Race By Design PS: I am serious about not generating a dime until I have paid well for the royalties for this and any forum I use. |
Racebydesign,
My hat goes off to you if you can make a kit thats easy to install. Trust me this is comming from a guy whos' arms look like they fought a weed wacker. Im not sure how you would run the duct work for a turbo but if its anything like the SC kit good luck with the easy part. |
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First, I still think you're selling. Second, if you're running a forced MR2 w/ cast pistons, you won't be for long. They cannot withstand the added pressure and heat - Lotus found this out after turbocharging the Esprit in 1980 and found the stock cast pistons crowning and melting at about 36k mi. In fact, I have a melted #4 piston from my '85 Esprit as a paperweight. In '86, Lotus went to a forged alloy piston in a matched nikosil liner, problem solved. Third, I don't know what kind of business model you have, but a $30k R&D expenditure cannot be recovered on a car which has only had 160,000 units produced worldwide. Maybe 20% of all Boxsters are on lease preventing the type of modding you propose. Then, there are many (like me) who don't want to fool with an already iffy engine, are satisfied with it just as it is, or prefer naturally aspirated engines (driveability). There are several countries which won't allow you to import your product or allow an owner to do this type of engine modding. Then, subtract those who have already done a 3.4 swap or an SC mod. I think best case, maybe 1-2% of all models produced, meaning 1600-3200 cars may add forced induction. And, this is best case - it's not like Imagine and other producers are going to just lie down and hand you the market, so I'd guess you might sell 500-750 total units. In order to recover that type of R&D cost (assuming this $30k figure is correct and you're not just posturing) and earn a margin on the sale, you'd have to price these things waay over anything which is currently available. And, I think the Super is much more attractive than the Turbo to most people anyway. I just don't see how you can get the math to work... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
I don't know, but the R&D expenses sound kind of low to me!
$30,000/500 units is only $60 per unit. Am I missing something? |
so what if selling?
Blake, I applaud your efforts!
I don't agree with Jim either, in fact, I would like to see real vendors on this forum so we can ask questions and get answers from the horses mouth so to speak. In most of my reading here, I sense that most people are looking to buy something... or looking for advice about buying or where to buy for the boxster... and what boxster owner doesnt want more performance... So even if you are selling, I see nothing wrong with it... and when it's no longer vaporware, PLEASE! come back and offer us a great deal! or at least ME ;-) For the record, I would spend $10000 or more... I would be looking at $/HP when deciding which way to go... Gemballa biturbo is the most expensive option I have found, but even at $52000 (500BHP) I am seriously considering it cause it gives me a supersportscar... TTP at around $20000-40000 (330-450hp) is where I am heading... I am reading these forums and researching still and knowing you might have another option is good to know. regards, |
Optimus:
You would spend 10k on a Boxster turbo? You interested in any real estate? |
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Yea, but don't forget, that's on top of all the other costs making up the retail price including production, warehousing, advertising/marketing, and profit. The price will need to reflect this and ammortized over so few units, it's akin to kissing your sister. I'm sure their business plan forecasts greater units sales than this, but in all my experience with Hotel Franchising, where a business plan was part of the Franchise application, I've noted that they are almost 100% optimistic and rarely perform on par with the proforma. I'd be surprised if they sell any more than my prediction. Imagine has been out for several months while the Gemballa and Turbo Performance kits have been available for years and I doubt that we have even 1% of the members here (meaning 60 cars) sporting Super or Turbo kits. Since the mod has been available for some time, this cannot be an accident, or lack of availability, rather a choice most owners have made to stay with the naturally aspirated engine, or they would have already performed the mod. One also needs to appreciate the risks involved in such a mod as well. One can spend thousands of dollars on this modification for relatively little gain, then perhaps thousands more when the engine gets damaged by a poor design or installation. Porsche won't repair under warranty any damage caused by a modification of this type, nor do the kit manufacturers warrant against this type of damage either. Most experts would agree that any such modification should be accompanied by extensive internal engine modifications as well, such as lower-compression pistons, stronger bearings, more heat-resistant exhaust valves, higher-pressure oil pumps, recalibrated DME, better flowing injectors and fuel pump, and more. None of the kits mentioned here include, or suggest, any of that. History is filled with guys coming out with better mousetraps, but it's also filled with guys going broke trying to promote better mousetraps, not to mention suckers who fell for the better mousetrap... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
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A boxster is a fantastic car that is simply underpowered... the fact that you can stick 500hp into it and turn it into something that competes with or beats a 911 says a lot for it's engineering. I also suspect that most people who can afford Gemballa... don't need to save money from advice gained by joining this forum and so we don't see them... As I said before, people should be discussing $/HP and not just what is affordable... |
Lol, goodness.
When I first started this it was to generate some chat and see if there was a demand for it. I wanted to know if people with Boxsters were like most other Porsche owners...aka: they like turbocharger units. I had no intent to become a turbo-Boxster sales mogul and one day name a city after me. I just think they are fun cars with a strong community of motorsport enthusiasts, not just guys with gold chains who rev at stop lights. I have said before, until the weekend (like the 25th) or shortly after any concept of pricing is EXTREMELY vague. I have to talk to my other business partners, the shop doing the building, etc. In all honesty this venture is simply to help break into the world performance parts and bring something to the table we can be known for. I am looking to make small batches and see a few owners with mild levels of boost with big grins on their faces. Lets think more in batches and less in the realm of Ford Motor Company popping out F-150's by the crate. If there is a demand and it can be done successfully (high quality, good results, decent price), we would like to introduce an intercooled kit to produce a max of 6psi with a liquid intercooler. ANY production engine that doesnt have pistons made of particle board can stand a conservatively tuned 5 or 6psi not intercooled. With an efficient intercooler this is very safe because your dropping the charge temperature and consequentially losing 1-2 psi through the intercooler. So only 4psi makes it to your throttle body and its colder than a Corona sitting in a bucket full of ice. :cheers: http://www.hassturbo.com/catalog/toyota.html Bear in mind that a 1zz-fe is a cast piston Corolla engine that is notoriously weak. Stock motors can take a little boost, look at the Mazdaspeed Protege. Anyways, long story that should have been very short. I am not looking to make alot of money on this particular project, nor put together some cheesy welded shop class nightmare. For the record: I dont want to trick you, I dont want to get rich, I dont want to blow any engines up, and I definitely dont want free advertising. Until I have some good hard facts I appreciate the feedback but please treat this like any other thread. Talk about it, think about it, laugh about it, etc. Wait until our emblem appears on the side and we have a part number before you do anything. :) Cheers, Blake Erven Race By Design www.myspace.com/racebydesign PS: Because are selling other parts and redesigning our website (it is very rudimentary), I am contacting the moderator of this forum to join as a sponsor. It has been my intent the entire time to find Boxster forum to join (and pay) for this reason. The only reason I didnt earlier is because we haven't even started selling to the public yet. I will make an introduction thread when this happens. |
Oh no mister, theres going to be a city named after you wether you like it or not. I wish you luck.
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Woohoo! Thanks :)
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Go for it
I would be interested on the following conditions:
1) Priced affordably - While there are a good number of members who have purchased new 987s, you are looking at a kit for the 986 models if I understand correctly. Although this is a generalization, the folks who own the 986 do so because they don't have the limitless resources to purchase a new 987 which has a significant hp increase. Therefore, I would be interested only if the kit was relatively cheap. 2) Easy to install - I wouldn't dare attempt to change the oil on my 986, let alone install a turbo kit...but others would. However, even for those of us who wouldn't install it ourselves, it would be cheaper and easier to find a mechanic who could install a more simple kit. As far as destroying engines....I am not concerned....I never buy the first thing that comes out and will wait to see what happens to everyone elses cars first :D Just my thoughts, Doug |
Build it and feel free to ask about interest on this board...I DO NOT agree with JIM...keep up the work and if you build it they wll come!
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I joined this forum to gain knowledge about my car. I was the first to respond to this thread because I was interested in the turbo kit. In no way did I see this post as a sales post. How are companies suppose to talk to their potential customers to see what they want if they can't make post such as this. Blake has said many times that if and when a product is available, that he would have no problem becoming a sponsor to promote his item.
Would I spend $10k on a kit? Probably. Could I have just purchased a car with more power from the start like a 911 Turbo? Sure I could have. But I bought the Boxster based on my preference. People ask me how could I spend $5k on a suspension upgrade on my car, I say, how could I not. I didn't by the car to be driving around a stock car. I bought it to make it my own. Suspension upgrades, turbo/SC, etc. They make the car unique and make it my own. Some people like to keep it stock. Great, that is their preference as well. Blake, keep up the good work. I would definitely be interested in your product. Thanks, David |
Sorry to thread jack..But I am here in Seattle also..Dave I think I even saw your car at Max RPM on a drive a bit ago...My 2000 S is done and will ship tomorrow morning.
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I nearly turbo charged my Miata before I decided to just get 250 HP by buying a BoxsterS. Recovering the money to go with FI on a Miata would have meant probably owning the Miata forever or selling at a big ole' loss. and the other thing was that I honestly never fel that my Miata really needed more than the 150 HP. it accelerated to 60 mph in what a mere second or two slower than my BoxsterS? And as far as handling well a lowered Miata on sticky tires really lessened the urgency for FI.
Now many of the same things apply to the Boxster. It handles superbly without the extra ponies of FI. and the big BUT againgst FI: The Boxster engine is expensive to repair in the even of engine failure due to FI. No one wants to deal with that no matter how much more power you'll get. Fixing a blown Mazda or Toyota engine is one thing but the cost of specialized labor to fix a Porsche engine is a deal breaker for most. I know allot of guys who have owned many Porsches and (everal at one time)and they absolutely will not touch even a FACTORY Turbo'd Porsche engine. You simply can't talk them into it. |
Lets all remember engine displacement.
The MR2 and Miata have a few good things going for them, however, engine size isnt one of them. I am a firm believer in engine displacement being a good thing, especially when you have a nicely designed set of 4 valve heads to go with it. A 1.6/1.8 miata will dyno 98-115 horsepower at the wheels depending on year. The MR2 spyder's 1.8 puts out 125 at the wheels on a good day stock. I wont compare the other MR2's just for sake of simplicity. For these engines to put out real power (to compete with the big dogs), you have to push 7-12 psi. The Miata with a BRP air-to-air intercooler and approx 9 psi pushes about 225 whp, the MR2 needs a bit less due to higher compression but is also more fragile. If a 2.5 boxster puts out 150 at the wheels (just pulling this figure out of the air), you would need a 50% increase to match them in power alone. This could be done with about 4 or 5 psi and a liquid-to-air intercooler and a very small turbo which would have almost no boost lag. Due to its un-boosted size, even a 2.5 Boxster would have tons more torque so the difference in weight would be insignificant. Add in the fact that most of you are running rubber that you couldnt fit in a Miata's driver seat. :D So yes, in a word I wouldnt push 10 psi with a rough tune at a Boxster. It's too much liability unless your sponsored and get free motors in the mail. However, at 4 psi I believe it would actually live much longer than being strung out at redline to eek all the power out of it. Start playing with hot cams, computer tuning, and increased redlines and the wear really beings. The real factor is keeping oil clean, pressurized, and cool but you have to do this with even a NA engine. Our Project Focus SVT with 5 psi of boost on a MP62 blower (no intercooler and 10.2:1 compression) puts out more power and torque at 5,500 rpm than at 7,200 stock. The strange thing that even at 3,000 rpm it has more spunk than it ever did, so we tend to beat on it less just driving around. I work at a service department so I know what you mean about servicing things that are "tweaked" and most people shy away. Warranty work is always tricky so I dont believe in trying to cheat the system. However, I think that people with chopped up wiring from poor stereo/alarm installs are just as bad. The only difference is that aftermarket superchargers/turbo's burn up O2 sensors instead of your windows randomly working or frying an odometer cluster (not joking here /hug Car Toys trainee). The main boon of a turbo system is holding back the urge to turn up the boost. There is no such thing as free horsepower. Once again, great feedback. Your all true professionals. |
I agree with the above statements, not to beat a dead horse but my 4.5 psi makes my car feel like a totally different car. Yes, I want to change pulleys and take it to 6 6.5 psi but common sense tells me not a good idea. Just my random thoughts....
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There you go, Ohioboxster is living testement to what a little boost can do (albeit, not too much).
I believe that turbochargers/superchargers get a bad rap in the tuner world for reliability because people are constantly pushing the bounderies or not tuning them appropriately (or both). The first thing they do with a supercharged vehicle is figure out where to get a pulley the size of a coke bottle cap and overclock the blower. Turbo owners purchase an aquarium bleeder valve or M.B.C. and basically run closed wastegate until they melt something. I did it once years back, its part of growing up. :rolleyes: If there are companies like Comptech offering supercharger kits for the S2000 (with and w/o intercoolers) that has 11.1:1 compression and a 9k redline I think anything can take a *little* boost. |
What's wrongwith making a turbo for a boxster??? If it where a carrera everyone would be dripping from their pants. Its the same as buying a crappy s/c but better. Its the first try from a tunning point of view, buy a gemballa kit and complain after spending more than a ferrari on the car. Wasn't there 3.8l boxster turbo kicking behinds??? It would put boxster on the spotlight and get other tuners to embrace making parts for it. Just admit that 1997-2004 Boxsters are underpowered. I really enjoy driving my car but sometimes when I want to go quick and see a crx or golf cart going faster than me than that isn't fair for the price we had to pay for our cars! Make a good turbo setup and i'msure everyone on the forum would like it. Otherwisr those members that hate the idea make your own site for conservative boxster owners where you just change wheels and tires. Not to stomp on those that do this. Just a reply fronm my palm treo while I tutor kids!!! :) to get some $$$ to make my car a better car. Please its just my point of view don't hate me saying what I believe.jaja
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What I would also like to know is what sort real world performance is the car doing now? 0-60 in ??? engine still smooth in normal use??? and i want to know same for turbowerx or TTP... Like Ohioboxster, I dont wnat to push the envelope... I just wnat to purchase a kit that has been well engineered. Therefore if it's 5psi and no engine mods (7K) or 10psi and lowered compression (20k) I would like options... |
I am gonna throw in my $.02 here as well. I come in with the majority on this thread. I enjoying reading the discussions and different points of view on putting a turbo on the Boxster. After doing my first DE last month I am convinced that the Boxster could use more power. The car chewed up the corners but by the end of every straight there was that Carrera right on my ass again. I think that depending on the cost of the kit it may be better to swap the motor or trade up to a newer S though. Of course if you don't want to invest that much and only need a small bump in HP I can see where a turbo may be the way to go. I am not an expert on turbo units by any means but from what I have read so far I would be really concerned about using a unit without an intercooler on an engine that wasn't designed for a turbo in the first place.
On a side note-one of the main reasons that I joined this forum was to find about about new products, vendors etc. I have learned an awful lot from this board in the short time I have been reading it and I hope to see more posts from new and potentially new vendors. |
Quick brief update:
Still waiting for more tangible data: numbers, pricing, timeframe, etc. Things we do know: *we have officially paid for 12 months of 986forum sponsorship. We dont have a banner at the moment because our website is being totally redesigned and is currently quite embarassing. :rolleyes: *we are looking at production of a minimum of 25 kits for the first wave. I will be actively contacting other vendors I am in connection with to help buy-down this order. *A second batch of kits might/might not happen depending on response. *It will be utilizing a very trick, custom designed high flow water-to-air intercooler. *boost will be in the 4.5-6psi range with about a .5 psi reduction from the intercooler. (this is very efficient, most air to air intercoolers sap 1.5-2psi). *boost will be as linear as possible while still giving great top end gains. *It will cost less than the Imagine Auto SC kit (this is not a slam on them, their product, or their company). *This should be available for the 2.7 and 3.2 as well (yes...3.2+ boost = :troll: ). The great thing about a turbo system will be ease of operation. While even 6 psi is very safe with this type of intercooling system (since its the only I.C. unit on the market), you can also run less psi with a flick of a switch. This makes seamless reliability possible even in enduro races. Please spread the word to your other Boxster communities to help spread the interest. We are not at the point of taking deposits but if this kit goes into production, chances are we will do one batch of kits. This thread will be followed with extensive details when they become available to us. As it has been mentioned in the past, there are very few forced induction Boxsters in the world. We can extend this number past 25 kits with additional interest but will probably not be putting out another batch each year (unless the feedback is surreal). Thanks again for your terrific feedback and questions. Blake Erven Race By Design www.myspace.com/racebydesign racebydesign@yahoo.com |
If you have something for 5K I would go for it. I would pay 5K to get 50-70 hp more. I have installed everything on my STI and if it's an easier install I would like to do it myself. You probably should go intercooled. You will probably need injectors. Maybe you can get around some of this cost by increasing fuel pressure and providing a different fuel pump.
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Hay MNavarro,
Welcome to the board. My user name is thenavarro , maybe we are long lost relatives. Anyway just had to say hello because of your username. Take care, Mike Navarro |
I can't wait
After driving my sisters 98 Boxster around LA all last weekend I can happily say I now have every intention of buying an 00-04 S after I complete probation at my new job <parents refuse to help before I pass>. I'm very excited about this kit because in my city theres maybe 20 turbo imports within 4 square miles of my house several of which are my friends ranging from junkyard turbo kits to 400hp SC300s. And anything to help my car stay in the mix is welcome. I've set put off installing my complete turbo kit I had put together for an 88 325iC just to save money for my boxster and if this boxster turbo kit shows the gains I'm hoping it will I'll be scrapping project Dirty E30 and selling it to buy this one.
PS. Suck is defined: Watching an Integra, a SC300, and an Impreza fly past you knowing that if they didn't have turbos you'd be making fun of them. |
Hello All,
We are working out the details and will post another thread when we have more concise information. We are very excited with the possibilities of this kit and would love to see what can be accomplished by a reliable dose of unnatural aspiration. Thank you for your interest. Blake Erven Race By Design www.myspace.com/racebydesign |
How's that R & D coming?
Hey Race by Design---it's been 9 months. Any updates?
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