Intermix is not the oil cooler - now what?
 

I had made a post a short while back that changing the oil cooler had solved the intermix problem I have in my 2002 Boxster S. I finally got to drive it on a long trip (200+ miles), and returned home to find significant amounts of oil in the coolant expansion tank. As before, there is oil in the coolant expansion tank, but absolutely zero water in the oil. I had flushed this thing to within an inch of it's life using Prestone flush, very thoroughly draining and refilling 2 more times, then another refill with distilled water and pink coolant. Given the multiple flushes and refills done I think there's zero chance that the significant amount of oil I found in the tank is residual oil from the previous issue. It is the same issue - the intermix problem is the same as it was before. I had checked the old oil cooler as I had read others had done, and I did not get bubbles from the water side to the oil side of the cooler. However, I was hopeful the issue originated with the cooler, as the cooler bolts were less than finger tight when I went to change out the cooler and of course the o-rings.

The question now is how do I proceed? At the end of the day, this is about a $7K car, give or take. It's a very nice car with 105K miles on it. It just doesn't have a lot of value - none of them do. It's just the way the market is. I'm not looking to profit from the car, but logically I can't see tossing a rebuilt engine into the car that costs as much or more as the entire car is worth. I've done a thorough search, and so much of the info is incomplete or contradictory. Best I can tell, if an intermix is not the oil cooler, it's almost always a cracked cylinder head.

If not a cracked head, what else could it be? How do I diagnose a cracked head, and which head it is? Do I need to remove the engine to check and replace a head? What are my options and anticipated costs for the various options?

I appreciate any help and direction you guys can give. Thanks.

Had the same problem so I pulled the motor, pulled the heads, had them pressure tested then sent out for repair. Mine was a 2001 S and really liked the car so I spent the money (and much more). If you want a profit it may be tough.

You have to find the source of the oil & fix it or the car is just a rolling chassis. No value to speak of. Have you thought about taking it to a competent Indie shop for diagnosis and inspection?

What year and trim level is the car (base or S?)

Sorry man, sounds like a nightmare (and maybe a lost cause.)

The easiest thing to do is drop the engine and pull the heads -- it maybe visually obvious at that point. If not you can magniflux and possibly pressure test it cheap enough at a machine shop -- then you can consider your options from there.

Mike

I've never quite been in your situation and I don't know the actual details and cost. I have been in a lot of other situations and read of other's success and failures. The following is pure guesswork and not detailed research...

You should expect that it needs the engine pulled and have a head repaired. Probably take it to a shop for an expert opinion first to verify that it's likely a head and see which one. There are a lot of Boxsters around Houston, there must be a few good indy shops in the area. Not sure of the cost, but I'd guess at least $2.5k and more likely around $4k by the time it's back on the road.

A replacement '01 - '02 3.2L engine swap will probably cost at least $7k and likely about $10K 'out the door' from a good shop. http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/63955-%2410-916-83-later.html

If you are attached to the particular car and have cash, a rebuilt engine may make sense, but realistically you can buy another S model for less than you'd pay.
The most sensible and saddest solution: Stop putting money in and walk away. Sell it for a loss, before you get in deeper and lose more. http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/70672-milky-coolant.html

My last suggestion and probably what I'd really do: Buy a collision salvage car and swap the engine myself. Still about $4k - $5k by the time it's in, but you can recover a lot of that by parting out the rest of the salvage car. Lots of time and garage space required. - to me it's 'recreation', not 'work'.

Best wishes, and we're here to help whichever way you take it.

Don't know what you paid for your Box but now is the time to decide if you are in or out. 2000 & 2001 heads are the thinnest castings, so good chance you have a cracked head. Easy to confirm by removing spark plugs to see if any are unusually clean. If you are in you should drop engine, & remove both heads & have them repaired & rebuilt. A proper repair makes the heads much stronger.

My advice is before making any decisions is to (once and for all) find the problem. At this point, I'd seek expert "eyes on, hands on" diagnosis, either from a well qualified indy or Porsche dealer....and actually, if it were me, I'd go the dealer route hoping that they would be most experienced. It might cost a couple of bucks, but at least you will have the knowledge to proced wisely.

The last thing I would want to see is a new forum member with a story like "I bought this car dirt cheap because the previous owner thought it had a cracked head when it was actually bla-bla, a $50 fix." Good for them I suppose, but I'm sure would make your head explode.

And to lighten your day, while typing autocorrect kept trying to replace PREVIOUS with PERVIOUS...does it know something I don't??? :)

I have to share you firsthand experience.

2002 Boxster S with 87K miles. Got it last year with similar issue. The previous owner complaint it was overheating and oil on the water (heavy milk shake or batter like consistency on the coolant reservoir) but no water on the oil side. The car run fine and no smell of coolant coming out the exhaust. The car sat for almost two year in this state, previous owner think he can fix it.

After buying the car, further investigation draining the coolant under the car and an obvious enlarge coolant houses I knew I was in deep trouble. Damage to the hoses is done on the cooling system, due to the length of time the oil is in contact with the rubber hoses. I proceed to disconnect the two primary hoses that connect to the two-aluminum pipe. I was further horrified to see the inside of the aluminum pipe was almost plug with the batter like coolant and oil mixture. I knew that much oil just didn’t come from a small leak to the oil heat exchanger. Two weeks of research and reading, they all point to the head cylinders cracking, very well documented.

So with this new information I decided to investigate to find answer why would the car developed over heating issue? This lead to another issue common to the Boxster by design that debris build up plugging the cooling fins of radiator making the cooling system inefficient. Pull the front bumper and you’ll see what I mean.

If you want to do it right, you’ll have to replace the entire rubber hoses on your cooling system including the heater core side. If not, highly probable you’ll crack the replacement engine or you new heads later due to burst hose. I must admit pulling the engine & tranny down is the easy part, getting to the rubber hoses and flushing the radiators is very time consuming. Cost wise I would recommend unloading the car, the cooling hoses alone total to about close to $500, you add the following items, water pump, IMS bearing, AOS, clutch, gaskets, spark plugs, o-rings and plastic hoses & IMS tool. The 2nd option is you’ll have to either source a used engine or rework the heads for ~ $1500 each plus the cost of head gasket kit and head bolts. Ohh don’t forget tools you may have to buy. It will add up quickly.

On the positive note, you’ll get to know this car very well. You won’t be afraid drive it hard because you can fix it. Good luck!

I appreciate all the input guys. This is one of those frustrating damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. The car just isn't worth enough to sink a significant amount of money into. As mentioned above, at some point that's not real difficult to reach, it's cheaper to just scrap it and buy another complete car. Yet, it's worth just enough that it's financially painful to just scrap it.

The problem is the darned labor - at my age I just don't have it in me anymore to pull the engine alone. I would have to pay to have it done. Am I wrong in assuming that it's probably $1K to $2K just in labor for an engine swap? Once the cost of either a head repair or a used engine is tossed in, you're looking at $4K at best, or $7K and up at worst for repair this car, and that's about what it's worth. Again, I'm not trying to make money off this car, but to me it's just foolish to put a repair into a car that costs equal or more to the value of that car.

I'm thinking that as suggested I'll go speak to a indy shop about diagnosing the issue, even though I can't see what else it could possibly be now other than a cracked head. I'll place a mutually agreed upon cap on the cost of the diagnosis. If they reach that cap without a diagnosis then we stop and the car gets driven as is 'till it dies and gets scrapped. There's no water in the oil at all, it may very well run for years this way, who knows.....It runs fantastically, that's the infuriating part of this. It runs strong and it doesn't overheat at all. I drove it all day long the other day in 85 degree temps and it never budged off the 180 degree mark on the temp gauge and ran perfectly.

Other than a cracked head, does anyone have any other possible causes of the intermix they can think of that I can check out on my own that can cause this? This is just so disappointing, as I do like this car.

Lastly, can anyone suggest a competent, reasonably priced Indy shop in the Houston area?

I think you're badly underestimating costs. Changing out an engine, de gunking the cooling system, replacing hoses, and a "while your in there" list is gonna be a bunch more than $2500 in just labor.

What part of Houston do you live in ? I live in spring and have found someone that works on Porsche's . His labor rates seem fair. He has worked on my Jeep and I am pleased with his work.The company is called UB Tuning off of Spring Cypress. There is another place called Lucas automotive That works on Porsche but he is much more expensive . I refuse to go to the dealer after they put a hole in my top.

Don't take anything I say as trying to shame you. How old are you? Are you in bad shape? I ask because this winter, I changed out the motor in my 01 base. All by myself, in pain most of the time because of arthritis. I'm 66 and kinda in lousy shape. I could do it all again, and it'd be easier. But I'm kind of burned out.

The thing is, Doug, if you have the space and the tools, it doesn't have to be done all at once, not in a few days, or even weeks. Off and on it took me almost 3 months. I've learned a lot, tho I'm not in any better shape, but I could probably do it in 3 or 4 weeks. Lots faster with a lift. If you can do it yourself in whatever time it takes, you cost is just for an engine and all the "while you're in there" goodies you'll want to do.

Your estimates above are pretty close (maybe a bit low).

One other source of intermix is one you really don't want to see, and that's a cracked cylinder liner. That's toss the block time. Yes it can be fixed -- but sleeving the block is way too expensive.

If you are going to keep the car and the intermix has been happening for awhile, if there is coolant in the oil -- your bearings will be chemically attacked by the anti-freeze. You can read all I did to my old Boxster S at Lone Star Refurbished Porsche Motorworks

I have a nearly complete 2001 S engine -- but I've got so much money into it, I can't sell it.

Mike

I'm in Kingwood. Thanks for the recommendation, I've had guys give me two others as well - Motorwerks in Houston and Modern Air Cooled (they work on water cooled as well). They're in Houston as well. Guess I'll ring each up and go forward from there.

Is there ANY possibility you didn't install the oil cooler correctly? Pinched an o-ring... something? How did you flush and bleed?

I've already spent a lot of time in and lots of money on the cooling system. It looks remarkably clean. Lots of the hoses as well as the water pump were just changed. I can't begin to tell you how thoroughly I flushed this system out last week. Even now with the oil in the system, it doesn't overheat at all, not even close. It's pegged dead on at 180 degrees, never wavers once it reached temp. If I fix this engine or replace it, I would certainly do a clutch (parts are fairly cheap) and also a IMS bearing replacement. I'd probably do the Pelican kit. It'll work just fine, and it'll last just fine as well. I've already got a new AOS with hoses, plugs, plug tube o-rings, etc on hand that I had planned to install as soon as I got to it. I have a complete set of brake rebuild items on hand, caliper decals and paint, pads, sensors, rotors, etc. I also have a complete 2003 large glass window top ready to go on. I have all this cool stuff, and now maybe no car to put it all on.

I really have to get more info on what's wrong, and thoroughly think it over. It's early in the process, but I seem to find myself coming to grips with two things - I'm leaning more toward fixing it, and coming to the unhappy conclusion that I'll probably have to do it myself. More on that below in an answer to Brian. I don't know if I fix this engine (it runs REALLY well) or replace it with another used one. A rebuild just isn't going to happen. That's where the repair shop comes in - I need to know what's wrong. Looking at the history of these engines, it's much more than likely it's a cracked head. I changed the oil last week or so. It was very clean, no evidence of water in the oil or filter at all - zero. Also, I closely inspected the filter, then ran a magnet through it. No evidence of metal at all. This isn't an easy decision at all. I bought this car to have fun, but damn, this isn't fun at all!:p

I hate to say it, Brian, but it's looking more and more like this is the only answer - do it myself. I can't tell you how much I DON'T want to do this. I still love tinkering with cars, but my heavy work job days are well past me. I used to swap engines in my younger days on a moments notice, but that was American muscle cars and front engine cars. This is my first mid engine car that drops out the bottom, and I'm not looking forward to that at all. If this were one of my old Corvettes or my current Cobra, the engine would be out already. I have a very complete set of tools, and even a 4 post lift at home. I'm not home now, I'm traveling for work, so I can't look, but my question is has anyone dropped an engine out of a Boxster on a 4 post lift? Will the engine fit down through the two main ramps that the car sits on? If it will, then this is instantly a much more palatable job.

Laying on my back doing this is a much different picture. My 60 year old body has a bad back that I deal with daily, and my energy level is somewhat depleted by a past dance with chemo and radiation. No whining, it just is what it is. For the actual dropping and lifting moments in and out, I'd need a second set of hands, which aren't readily available to me, but I can probably drum up someone for that. The guy I can probably get to help me for an hour to drop and a hour to get it back up to the car doesn't know a lug nut from a steering wheel, but I suppose he really doesn't need to.

I'd be much more willing to do it myself if I could do it on my four post lift. If any one knows for sure if this can or can't be done, please let me know.

I'm reasonably confident I got it right. I was super careful. As for flushing - it went sort of like this. Completely drain the system - remove drain plug, disconnect two main radiator tube hoses and heater hoses back by the engine, drain thoroughly. Heater core valve was opened prior to all this. Run garden hose through all hoses, in both directions, until water runs clear. Hook everything up, fill with water using vacuum fill tube. Bring car up to temp, drive it for about one hour. Bring home, and do it all again as described above.

Next day, bring car up to temp, and drive again for another hour. Drain and flush again as above. Refill with water and Prestone flush with oil degreaser. Again, filled with vacuum refill tool, as always. Bring to temp and drive multiple times for about 90 min total. Completely drain and flush with clean water until all runs clear. Refill using vacuum refill tool with distilled water and pink coolant, 50/50 mix.

I thought I was done. I guess not.......

Mike - is the shop you posted the link to your shop, or a shop that you've used? I can easily get the car to Austin if they're good and reasonably priced. The car runs flawlessly as it sits and doesn't overheat. I wouldn't hesitate to get in it right now and drive it on the highway for a couple of hours. There is ZERO water in the oil.

It’s my buddy’s shop, Danny at Silent Automotive.
We partnered up for a few years, but my real job took off, so I do less wrenching and focus on driving. He still does the wrenching I don’t have time for.

He’s reasonably priced, very good, but takes his time.

Text Danny at 512-366-0627

Mike

It’s likely a crack in the head right around the spark plug.
As the head heats up the crack expands and the oil pressure is
greater than the water pressure and thus you can have a one way intermix.

Mike

Doug, I used one of these to remove the gearbox and also to lower the engine to seal a leaking cam cover (using jack stands..)

https://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-hydraulic-table-cart-60438.html

I believe that you can easily position this table (or something similar) between the ramps on the lift and once you remove the mounts, harness, hoses, etc., you can raise the car and leave the engine/gearbox laying on the table.

I really wish I had a lift.. :(

I'll text him now Mike. Taking his time is no issue, I'm in no rush.

Thanks

I guess it all comes down to if the engine will fit between the ramps on the lift. Thanks for the heads up.

Doug, here is what I would do... double check your oil cooler install. Maybe the one you bought is bad (happens) or, maybe you pinched or even dropped an o-ring. Did you use new O-Rings? While considering the worse case scenario is valid, you are nowhere near having all the facts yet. If, it winds up you have a cracked head, and an entire engine replacement is the way you decide to go (other than fixing) then I would drive it till it dies. Might leave you stranded one day, but then again any car at anytime could as well. It cost me nearly 4 K to put a motor in my daughters old (98) Subaru, I did not do it. You can drop in a motor for not a ton more...

I've removed 50+ boxster motors using a 4 post lift. For 10-15 of those I removed the drive train out the back and kind of used the four post like a two post. I've since notched the ramps on my four post so the motor can come out through the middle.

Thanks, Woody. If I replace the motor it'll most likely come from you. When I pick it up I'll have to take a look at what you did. Thanks so much, as always!

It drops straight down, the widest part of the engine is up around the plenums and the cam covers. If it will be able to drop down between the rails on your lift, you can lower it down onto the top of a lower tool cabinet, finish disconnecting the trans mounts and the motor mount and then raise the body back up enough to clear the engine.

I did mine the third world way--adlibing as I went. If I were in worse shape and had a lift, I'd probably scan craigslist for a Mexican guy to do the heavy work. There are some really competent Mexican Mechanics that don't charge an arm and first born to work for you. At least here in Tucson there are. Having a helper would be as good as having a lift.

I don't have any nice one's right now. The best i have is one with 109k for $2500. Brad Roberts out of California has one for $4000 shipped. I don't know the info on it but just the fact that he's had his hands on it says a lot. He's in my top five best porsche mechanic's in the country. The guy knows his stuff.

Try 20th St. Auto in Phoenix, they part out Porsches and have been good to me (tho I've never bought anything mechanical from them.) They do ship. (602) 258-2020 My local favorite indie shop swears by them.

I'm trying to take my time thinking this through. Here's where I'm at. There's no choice other than to eventually take the engine out. That job is the sticking point, but either repair or replace, the engine has to come out. My fear is that if I replace the engine with a used one, I really have no idea what I'm going to get. I haven't got much experience with this particular car as I only recently bought it, but I do believe the basic engine is very sound and solid.

The engine runs very strong, and in changing the oil I found that the old oil was clean and clear, there was no metal at all in the oil as it drained (I strained it as it drained, there was nothing), and in very, very closely inspecting the oil filter, there was no metal at all, either visually or after running a strong magnet through the entire filter.

I'm leaning now toward eventually removing the engine, then removing the heads and then sending them out for testing. It has to be one of them. I'll get the car looked at first to see if a qualified shop can make a positive diagnosis. Once I know which head it is, I can either replace the affected head with a good used one or send it out for repair. Any input on the repair vs. replace scenario would be greatly appreciated.

How difficult is it with the engine removed to remove and replace a head? I've poked around just a bit on the internet but haven't really seen a good how to on the subject, but I haven't done a real thorough search yet. If anyone has a good link, I'd appreciate you sending it along.

While it's out that would give me an opportunity to completely clean the engine, of course install a new IMS bearing and clutch, inspect the dual mass flywheel and replace if necessary, engine mounts and transmission mounts, engine oil separator, spark plugs and tube o-rings, etc. This also give me the opportunity to keep the original engine with the car. I know the "while you're in there" list can get long, I already intended to do most of this stuff, and actually have a good amount of it on hand already.

Taking the engine out is going to be a royal pain in the a$$, but either way it has to be done. In the mean time I can enjoy the car for a short while, as there is absolutely zero water in the oil, so until the real heat of summer hits I can take the car out for a spin with the wife once in a while, which is why I bought it in the first place.

Thoughts?

I still think you need to do the oil cooler check first, possible even replace again. Totally rule it out... You said it worked, then didn't... Get rid of all the easy stuff once and for all. Then do the painful stuff if necessary.

Taking the engine out is not really as daunting a job as one might fear. Be methodical and document everything as you take it apart. I removed one with a tiptronic transmission still attached since I didn’t need to address the clutch, flywheel, etc.

I will. I used new o-rings, and the install is really straight forward so I doubt I got it wrong, but you never know. Like you said, there's always the very small chance the new cooler is no good. I tested the old one after installing the new one. I filled the water side with soapy water, and pressurized the oil side. No bubbles. I'll do the same thing to this one, and see how it goes. I suspect all is well, but investing another hour or so to remove, test and replace, and $5 for new o-rings can't hurt. Thanks very much for all your input. I appreciate it.

In my younger, more energetic years it would have been done already. Of course Brian has me motivated, as we're similar ages and he did it without a lift. Finances are a powerful motivating factor as well. :eek:

I hope to have a chance to pick Woody's brain a bit to see exactly how he did it on a 4 post lift. I'd rather not cut the lift up for what I hope will be a one time job, and he mentioned that he had a secondary method of doing it was well. Woody, if you're reading this, I hope you don't mind a quick call sometime in the near future for a very brief tutorial as to how to go about this on a 4 post lift. I know you're a very busy guy, I'll be quick!

Does anyone know of a good tutorial for cylinder head removal and replacement?

Thanks again to all, your input is invaluable. I appreciate you all.

Taking the heads off and then putting them back on looks like a nightmare and maybe an exercise in herding cats. I elected to get a used engine so that I could avoid an engine rebuild. Getting all the rotating parts timed doesn't look easy. Woody's place is only 133 miles from Houston, why not run up there for a visit?

Without the cam holder tool, it’s likely impossible.

Mike

I've been by Woody's place a few times for a bunch of parts - there's no better guy associated with these cars than Woody. He's been invaluable - not only as a source of good used parts, but sound honest advice as well. Unfortunately, as of now Woody doesn't have any real good low miles 3.2L "S" engines on hand, that's the word straight from him.

I've looked at a couple of articles on R&R-ing the heads. It looks like a real pain in the a$$, but not un-doable. Doesn't look any worse than pulling the engine in the first place. There might be some tool purchasing or fabrication needed, but it can certainly be done. The plan is to put the engine on a good quality rotating engine stand, put some Stevie Ray Vaughan on the garage stereo, and go at it very slowly and methodically. The best advice I have gotten so far (and I appreciate ALL the advice you guys have given, believe me) came from Brian, who said take your time, do it a bit at a time, there's no rush to finish. That's exactly what I plan to do.

I rebuilt a 911 3.0 a bunch of years ago, to include hand lapping the valves... no small task that build. Given what I’ve seen of the 3.2 M-96 rebuilding it is a whole other animal. At least get the proper tools to give yourself a more fighting chance! Jake Rabi offers a course in rebuilding the M96, might be worth a look.

I'm not planning a whole rebuild, with spliting the case and dealing with rods, bearings crank, pistons, etc. I'm just taking off the heads, sending them out, then reinstalling them. It's a pretty straight forward R&R as far as I can tell, the tricky part is maintaining the timing chain position to keep the engine valvetrain in time, or putting it back in time if they slip. That's going to be the biggest task as best I can tell.