So I just cracked-open my IMS flange....
 

And this is what I found. The horror!

Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes I wish things like this would have been shot to hell upon inspection.

But it's not. :rolleyes:

It's intact, it turns beautifully and is not loose in any way. The seals do not appear to be brittle or broken. There is absolutely no wobble in the bolt shaft/front bearing retainer.

AND I'M GOING TO LEAVE IT JUST AS IT IS.

The car is a 2002 S with 67k miles. It ran very smooth before I ripped it apart to change the clutch. I did an oil inspection that turned-up absolutely no signs of above-microscopic metal. I will just change the oil every 3,000 - 4,000 and repeat the inspections until the engine starts to get clattery, or until I find silver in the filter...and THEN I might think of replacing it with pretty much the same damn bearing that's in there now.

I present to you, the unicorn. A decent NSK 4206DU17 bearing that has been in there since day one. It's fine...(knock on wood)





http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468644840.jpg

Yes, I am well-aware that the grease has probably been washed-out of it for 50,000 miles, and that there is old ugly oil inside of it, but I am going to call it a sleeping bear, and let it be.

Geez, can imagine when all of those parts flying off and peppering out in a dense populated area. Terrorist stuff (not unicorn man)

If really you and others are worried about your bearings, please invent what should have been invented at the very first place and perhaps a long time ago.

This is 2016 now guys :/ Not 1972. Soon to be 2017 if some are not aware.

It is as bloody simple as using piezo-like vibration sensor ported onto the flange or anywhere near the center of that rotating mass. With today’s inexpensive real-time capable telemetry (micro-computers) and as simple as downloading often affordable SDKs (Siemens’s LMS Test.Lab for instance, many others), you can compile an app that aggregate real-time data (and it’s in the 1~2Ghz fast). Sync the emergency switching to the car’s ignition and voila, you won’t have to worry about a bearing blowing-up unexpectedly.

Not that it not feasible, I've already seen some cabling/tubing being drilled into that flange.

^ Mind you I haven’t invented any of that rant; already works for aerospace, transportation, military, can’t imagine it not working for a silly little 911 bucket car.

PLEASE BE SERIOUS DEAREST IMS INVENTORS: Call it PATTENT # IMS986996

RE shinny bearings; even if they are made out of Wurtzite (boron nitride), diamond, silicon carbide, etc etc etc There is still no way (in 2016!) to tell when it’s about to fail.

Get to work, save a Porsche (or more!). Thanks you very much and have a amazing day

Ta Da, Bingo! Couldn't find better to illustrate my Frenchglish above. Proof of concept.

01:02min

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DUznmZvSQOU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Hello nine8six,

when will the sensor and app set be available (in your new shop)? I think there is a buyer waiting. ;)

But i think we would need some data from good and bad engines and engine types to make it easier to identify the right wrong vibrations.

And if that could be combined with the camshaft deviation that would be a very good indicator that something might get wrong.

BTW: knock sensor works the same. But it sits on the cylinder head; so wrong position.

Regards, Markus

Markus - the app uses adaptive learning tech. It doesn't need to know the differences between a good and bad bearing.

All it needs is to evaluate is fluctuations in acoustics/vibrations using (aggregating). E.g. if the curve goes UP and does not stabilize back to its original learning curve, it simply errors out.

Error; dash light; you just won't be able to start your car. Simple as that

Works even if installed while the bearing is currently in the process of failing. That curve will deviate every miles the car makes and just won't pass the learning stage anyway.

Now THAT is a fail proof system and permanent peace of mind solution.

I'm tempted to give it a shot with relevant engineering talents but unfortunately this IMS business has nothing to do with me.

What I would like/LOVE to see is a community joined-force. A NEW thread in the DYI calling on talents to associate and building a "modern" solution for our beloved Porsche cars.

E.g. I'll be the guy who machine the parts and model assemblies. You can be the Electrical engineer, and John Doe will be the data acquisition engineers. You get my point. Sales/profits to be shared among the dev team. Read FULL transparency, open source if you prefer

sick of hearing & reading about bearings, thousands and thousands of Porsche fan like myself worries way too much, even if they have a NEW bearing in. It almost f n funny (BUT its not, and that's the problem)

Urgently needs a "permanent" peace of mind high tech solution. Not sure how to put this in English here lolll

Hi nine8six,

i like the idea.

Does anybody else like to enter the boat? Maybe new thread?

Regards, Markus

lolllll now that the full prototype is drafted you'll have the entire industry dropping by saying "we're working on this already".

So Markus as Project Manager. Headquarter in Germany I don't care. Feel free to start your own thread my friend. If you don't I will. I really hope the IMS leaders (inventors loll) will join soon after. Me think its in their advantage, besides the community needs them anyway.

I'll put my name down for sure: I got $46k worth/paid for software/femap/nastran here, if this may help. Other industry involved. Got high speed machining tools (HSM) capable of 0.002mm accuracy also (careful!). +Mold/die/casting exp. Aerospace ready, in other words

We equally need the engineer responsible for the "Handheld IMS Checktool" tester (require adv PIC//Microchip/Matlab/Prog). I'll help you with the backlited LED display and soft silicon grip design ;)

Tool to be distributed to all Porsche Specialists (test equipment)

Concept based on: "Works even if installed while the bearing is currently in the process of failing. That curve will deviate every miles the car makes and just won't pass the learning stage anyway."

I love your posts. :cheers:

Also...Could someone just isolate the OBD2 equivalent of something that constantly monitors camshaft deviation? All it would have to do is start screaming when it realizes that the pattern is that of one chain side slacking and the other chain side tightening really fast and forming a "wave" readout of some sort, which would indicate that the rear of the IMS shaft is is moving in an eccentric or orbital path around the bearing (axially disturbed).

I salute you sir for flying in the face of convention. Although you may be in danger of being labelled a heretic :eek: by the general 986/996 community at large. ;) I will also follow in your footsteps and continue to monitor the cam dev. and oil filter (with oil analysis) before I yank that bearing just cuz. And I have a Tip, so no clutch X/O for me.

Hi nine8six,

i throw in another idea. If we could store the data of the sensor for a time period and could upload that to an online database, we could compare data and engines. Also it would be possible to give software updates. So it might be useful if the product could communicate with the internet in any way.

I think that is important, because even if the system is self learning the main problem might be to interpret things right. So maybe something generates vibration. But it's not the IMS but a failing a failing ignition coil or something like that.

Regards, Markus

^ right there. You see what happen when you group together. Brilliant ideas comes together. Team work and knowledge sharing is a killer. Works.

By using this online sharing method we'd average the ideal vibration freq (range?) in less than a month. Brilliant idea, software updates is a must I agree.

Markus, RE your question about what-is-not-is-breaking; the vibration spectrum analysis (aka algorithm) would be entirely to the m-eng’s discretion. Often highly safeguarded lines of codes but relatively easy to do; being proprietary to Porsche’s IMS only would make it even simpler to develop. To my knowledge not 2 freq are the same.

Not a vibration engineer myself but know for sure that low/high frequency accelerations would be much different from a failing coil pack to an “isolated” grinding metal frequency. Which is, in a few words, what makes this vibration analysis tool (concept) so efficient and literally unbeatable. Boeing, military contractors, and Co, wouldn’t use the technology if it wouldn’t.

Chain slacks monitoring could also work (I’m less aware/exp) but nothing as close and scientifically efficient or reliable as real-time vibration analysis. I do see the data of both being merged for better output however. I mean why not!

But wait! How can we make money off of this?

You'll sell half a million kits overnight, given the package/app and micro-sensor are <$199.99 and does not need too much of a hassle to install (e.g without having to remove the gearbox).

^ Unrealistic but you get the idea. Can't imagine it being that efficient without retrofitting the IMS flange with "built-in micro sensor" anyway but could be wrong ;)

Just built a website for the product and sell "paid advertisement" to shock absorber and alternator manufacturers (lolll). You'll get so much traffic during product launch you'll make enough cash with this alone I'm sure.

Simple as pie.

I'll became the official distributor for Europe and will be millionaire within 1 year. ;) I think there will be a big demand. But it also will be a lot of work. As said, i like the idea.

Best would be it is a Bluetooth connected sensor that communicates with your mobile. If there is something wrong you'll get a message on your mobile. Or Siri calls you in the morning at 9:00 and tells you there might something wrong with your car. And next you can ask for a workshop near you to check the problem or you'll get a recommendation for an workshop.

BTW: if we can measure vibration we could also integrate an alarm system if your car is moved without your permission. OK that would mean not only Bluetooth but www connection…

Many options…

Regards, Markus

We could build our own IMS retrofit and patent everything.

I would use a (thick) GM-style cam bearing that just gets press-fit into the end of the IMS, and then redesign the flange with a big surface for it to rotate around...and have the oil pressure-fed onto that surface via a tap by the oil filter. Or has that been done already? Unfortunately, that is too simple and wouldn't even need the microprocessor.

Hey Markus

Today you can see (as affordable) compute having as fast as 1.2GHz. e.g. cortex A9 CPUs, 1GB of RAM built-in Wi-Fi and bluetooth. Extremely fast & powerful and retail for less than $100. Cost much less when “pre-ordered” in qty. So.... technically if the car is in range with your residential wifi or 4G hotspot, it is essentially LIVE capable. Your options and creativity is limitless at that point.

FauxDiablo - Properly relayed using a decent microcontroller this thing also can cut your ignition 1,000ms faster than your engine have time to grenade itself ;) See it as a real-time Porsche Engine heartbeat. IMS is the main priority and issue but also think anything else out of the regular ‘ticking’ curve. Powerful stuff, seen/read about it before on some million $ machine tool, airplanes, weapon dist systems(quite an important feature lolll), but never seen this sort of telemetry on any cars and I think Porsche owners wants some. Judging from the obsession toward the bloody bearing and slight little ticking noises anyway.

Need 2 piezoelectric accelerometers (analyses each other,see;quality only!)
Extensive backend coding + Management, reporting, automation + GUI

The rest is hands on Porsche proprietary data collection and analysis and that’s it really. Not all space science. Tech that works already, ported to handheld devices, etc etc

Hello, Nine8Six.

Good idea and it will work. I say that having worked as a senior development engineer for hardware and software in various digital products, including a lot of audio. I'm a 25-year+ member of IEEE and AES.

You may be underestimating the amount of code that has to be written, not to mention the extensive debugging required to make it reliable. In this case, the amount of code will be driven by the large number of digital filters needed and the interaction among them. This is because motors are noisy places. Picking out the relevant signal from the noise could only be achieved by "self learning" algorithms "hearing" more than a few failures. Lacking any database of failure sounds, the software will have to determine the onset of failure based on changes from "normal." Of course "normal" will vary from motor to motor and across a large operating range.

In short, this is a hard problem that does not lend itself to generalization. Some strategies may be transferable to other motors in other models of cars, but most of the code will not be reusable.

If you were the Director of Engineering at Porsche and asked me as a consultant to bid for this software work, I would estimate 2 man-years. At my rates, that is over $300K.

Good luck with it.

Cheers,

Dave
:cheers:

The system we debate on has not much in common with the durability of the bearing itself. You will still need to change your bearing shall you want something better than stock. It won't make any bearings live longer.

Be clear, the system is designed for real-time tracking of the condition of your bearing. Eyes on your bearing tune at all time & speeds + emergency kill switch features. Nice? We can design it so it will make engines live longer; you'll be able to spot your Clinks & Clunks trends and possibly even catch when that 'stray' ferrous metal passes a valve

anything out of the curve can be registered as fault codes. Limitless really

Those 'modern' sensors runs pretty fast band ranges these days lolll. High temp, metal shielded leads, life warranty stuff man :D

Hi Dave

Wow, thanks so much for jumping in and taking the time to write here. Exactly what I meant, we need minds like yourself to set the rules and standards also! Welcome to the speak (it is just a speak still).

Would you join us if;

1. I base the backend on the Cortex and open SSH root access to the libraries. I can get dns to serve that to all interested developers and yourself. I can also look into setting up a lab with both analog and digital interfaces for the sensor signals. Should be fairly easy (cheap!) to provide.

2. I machine a mid sized replica of the steel base shaft assembly and chains and get it to rotate 24/7 here at the shop (using electric). Providing developers with real-time data to prototype onto. That’s right, live, on the Internet.

Something you'd still consider 300K? In all honesty I had estimated about 25~50k max but that only if using other's SDK (commercial or contracted, same really).

Your advice is priceless so (please!) stick around mate. That bearing needs a serious fix lollll

All the vibration and harmonics aside, I need to run this by you smart people...

I just reinstalled the IMS flange, reinstalled the chain tensioners, and removed the cam and crank locks. Do the following diagrams look as they should? I think they do, but just a little nod of approval would make it a great night!

Basically I am checking the timing on what appears to be a five chain system.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468711735.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468711748.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468711762.jpg

Faux - I swear to god my intention wasn't to hijack your thread lolllll Although I've done that twice now in less than one week (I think)

Was under the impression you were making a statement about "its fine" and intended to leave that thread without a particular update.

Should have checked with you before. Sorry bud.

No idea on visuals above, can;t help. Those all look terribly complicated if you ask me (geez man). Hope someone here can give you a hand soon

FauxD
I suggest you consider removing the seal before you replace the flange.
But first ask the Forum.
The theory is that the grease has gone so if you remove the seal, the IMSB will bet a little oil bath for lubrication.Better than no lubricant.
Some replacement IMSB kits have that seal already removed so it is a reasonable proposition to consider.

So you guys will have this all in place by... *checks watch* end of next week?

Hello imon_2nd,

i think there must be existing programming libraries for that problem. First music industry has developed a large range of digital filters. Such systems are in cars for a longer period - for example knock sensors. And shure there are other industries where this kind of diagnosis is used.

I agree when it comes to the point when you say the engines are different and additionally the engines are not new. But the idea of the nine8six was detect change. So if i got it right, this unit can learn the state of the engine. And if anything significant changes it alarms. Problem i agree is that to detect what are the parameters for an IMSB alarm. So an idea is to bulld a database where everyone who has that unit will be connected to an internet data base and the units sends her data everytime the car was moved. So the data can be analyzed and can be a learning system. Additionally it is important that the owner gives information about his car according to the data. And also it would be useful to get an info from the owner if the car was phyically diagnosed for an intermediate shaft bearing problem or if was replaced and when and what type. If we could do software updates from the web to the unit, we could inform the unit about these parameters and also of parameters to the specific engines. So this would be more like a self learning system.

And that would be an interesting part, because if the owner has for example a failed water pump and he will tell us when the water pump was replaced, we would know OK - this data came from a failed water pump and so on.

So it would be a more collaborative system than an endless reserarch system.

Regards, Markus

PS: do we need another thread?

In a sense, yes, pretty much. Like I said, the applied technology is already existing so we are not reinventing anything or reformulating this world’s equation in any ways.

SDK (solvers if you prefer) are available through untested free libraries (github), by buying commercial solvers (Siemens) or by contracting someone who already has it done e.g. roughly 20+ companies listed who specialize in vibration here in China, some manufacturing testing equipment already. Or contract friend Dave and he’ll write this all up for you from scratch (at a price of course).

The other option of course is getting some talents from the community itself, the leaders in bearing trends, to join up and DIY. I think we have pretty much all we need here lollll

Surely Porsche Co Inc Phd and the community would appreciate the effort. Would make 986forum famous also.

Anyway, the concept/prototype is written black on white, for those who didn't follow, see post #6. Won’t get any better than that as for a solution to permanently cancel this mighty bearing worry/obsession problem. Sadly!

I’m stopping here Faux, we’ll throw in another thread soon. Which I hope you’ll join to offer help (HQ in Germany!). We still need that website with the paid avert setup thingy ;)

There; the shaft that will be machined out of steel and chained X6 (we just want noise for now, lots of it!). We’ll also place a nice little NSK bearing with a replica flange on it and spin it @3k all day long. Place two micro (super-super fast mhz) accelerometer sensors on each sides of the flange and that will provide enough real-time data (aka bearing time wavelength) to a dev team to (at least) develop the core backend code.

All BS propaganda atm but regardless, gives you an idea of how fast these things move in a real world. Not next week, but may well be the week after ;)

(sorry, Faux, Sunday eve here; wife reading downstairs, nothing to do mate lolll)

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468781366.jpg

Oh geez, already sent to CAM and being machined lolll
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468781383.jpg

Hi nine8six,

i'm not that fast with building up a european hq. ;) But i think we need a little business plan and a kickstarter project to gain money for a prototype.

Maybe this could change the car diagnostic business. And also could bring car diagnostic to cars that never where designed to have any.

"You can tame a wild horse but never put life in a dead one." David Ogilvy.

Think we have a wild horse. ;)

Maybe some now know what my profession is. ;)

Regards, Markus

One of my regular routines on returning from the track is connecting the Durametrics and doing a sample of the cam timing actual and the cam timing specified. It been good so far +-.5 once the oil temp is leveled off.

That's an awesome virtual mill you have there! If I had one I would just use it as a video game. Oops, crashed the spindle, no problem, reset.

Markus - let this boil for 2~3 days and we'll talk, happy for you to take the lead on this. We need a team man... let's see if we can get the finest of the finest off this forum and RL combined. Let's talk over another thread soon!

Haha, that’s the lathe bud, the mill is below. Oil cooled 20,000RPM spindle, 60meter/min travel speed, servo 16x tool changer (tool change in 1.2sec). All powered by a (Nano-bit precision) Siemens Sinumerik controller and Sinamics drives & servos. German engineering at its finest.

Does a pair of adjustable GT3 control arms in <6min. The mill alone worth twice more than the latest GT4 also :(

Feel ya, but sadly you can’t crash them, the SIM are linked and in sync with the actual physical machines' limit switches. Extremely event-less and boring!


http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1468830419.jpg