Czech military pistol CZ-52 You can run but you can't hide from this one. the 7.62x25 round will penetrate level 2 armor so it will go right through a car door or window like butter and come out the other side. Not so good for home defence as the bullets go through rather than mushroom in the target.
Accurate to 50 yards.
I take it to the rifle range as the pistol range is not very challenging.

German Police Sig P230 (9mm). Fits in the hand perfectly and is easy to aim well.
Its very ergonomic and comfortable grip, but have to remember its not got a conventional safety lever.

Romanian SKS (7.62x39) is the perfect carbine sized gun for fending off a small army, acurate, fast loading with clipper strips and good range.
A fore runner to the AK47 design.
I imagine this as a post 9 earthquake defense weapon as people start raiding others homes for food and water.

Mosin Nagant 91/30 PU (7.62x52) Accurate to 550 yds, with a scope and makes for a decent low cost sniper rifle for hunting at a distance.

If I ever had to defend myself I'd go for the Sig 9mm. You will never pull the trigger and come up against the safety.

Breaking news from Houston per radio station KTRH. A Houston resident was approached yesterday in his driveway by an armed robber who was demanding money. The resident reached into his car, pulled out a gun and shot the armed robber dead on the spot. KTRH didn't say if the resident proceeded to hand his wallet over to the armed robber. My guess is the resident kept his wallet (and his life).

You keep using the word "facts" but you never show any. Huh.

And show me where I've critisized anyone here but you, moron? I have no prob with you Americans wanting to carry guns....as a right. Said that many times. My argument is simply that it doesn't make you any safer, based on tangible evidence.

I'd say the Houston resident was safer with the armed robber dead in his driveway than he was when being threatened with a weapon. It's kind of hard to argue the opposite of that.

And that's a great single example - and I'm sure there are a ton more. The challenge is, for every one like this, there are dozens of examples where the good guy didn't fare so well. Or where a family member was shot and killed accidentally. Or a stray bullet took out a bystander. There are hundreds of those every year. You can't cherry pick your examples and ignore the multitude of evidence against this.

There are far too many unstable people out there and getting a CC license is actually fairly simple in many states. There are tons of stories where CC people used their weapons in non-life threatening situations. Many have killed loved ones and coworkers.

Again, argue it's your right all you like - but if you want to argue FACTS - sorry, it can't be done.

A place for my piece
 

@giller is right. There is a reason my grounds on this are entirely philosophical and I never bring up facts and for the time being have little intention to buy a gun for myself.

The right to a gun is as important as the right to free speech and I'll do anything I can to defend it. But it's not like it's perfect.

Anyways insert Jefferson Quote: "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

Wow! You are an angry man! I hope you aren't packing! Giller is not a miserable little coward, and judging from his posts- he isn't stupid either. He and I live in a society where self defense is rarely a concern. We don't need to carry concealed weapons or go to sleep with baseball bats under our pillows. One of the main reasons that we don't is because most people aren't armed, up here in Canada. There is no possible way that being allowed to carry a gun makes the general population safer. Although, I can certainly understand why you would feel the need to carry when everyone else is.

BTW. When you call someone stupid it is best to use the correct "to" in your sentence. Otherwise it makes you look a little stupid.

Here is the best data that I could find with references to the author of the actual study;

• There are "no statistically discernible relationship between concealed carry policies and the public’s perceptions of the number of firearm carriers." (Fortunato, 2015)
• "No support to the hypothesis that shall-issue laws have beneficial effects in reducing murder rates" (Grambsch, 2012)
• At the city level, there is "no evidence that [right-to-carry] laws reduce or increase rates of violent crime" (Kovandzic, Marvell and Vieraitis, 2005)
• "No statistically significant association exists between changes in concealed weapon laws and state homicide rates" (Hepburn, Miller, Azrael and Hemenway, 2004)

Of course, people can pick and choose from the multitude of studies that have been published. There are some that say that armed citizens are safer and that crime rates are reduced and there are other studies saying the exact opposite - if you want to cite a couple of studies reflecting/confirming your own personal opinion, its easy to do.

But the common denominator that I found seems to be that allowing concealed carry is largely irrelevant to the bigger picture of overall crime rates. The few people that are saved by having a gun is generally offset by a few accidents and everyone else continues to kill each other at the same rate whether concealed carry exists or not. Net change = 0.

This brings us right back to where we started; Owning and/or carrying a gun is a right and a personal decision. Choose wisely.

Giller,
I'm sure you're a nice person, and meeting you in person would be a pleasure as it would be with most of the forum because we all share an enthusiasm for the Boxster. I wasn't going to post on this thread except to offer a solution to the original question, but there goes that idea. I hope you will read your post and see the irony that though you talk about facts, even yelling it in full caps, your post hasn't any. I was going to ask you to post some facts, but trolling for them would be a burden, and as the links you posted previously clearly had a hard core anti gun bias I figured I'd go find some unbiased facts and post them, here goes.

Now I'm in Texas, the most rootinist tootinist red neck hey "y'all watch this!" uneducated cow poke state in existence. Not a day goes by that some west Texas inbred imbecile goes by in his pickup truck clinging to his bible whooping and hollering while carelessly emptying his six shooter into the air.

All that that having been said to prove the "street cred" I have from living in a gun infested environment.

Texas gun laws are some of the most forgiving in the nation. Not only can you carry your gun in your car without a permit (provided you are allowed to carry at all - no felonies, class a misdomeanors, or unpaid child support, etc.), but you can pack on a golf cart or a boat! Provided it's concealed. As of January 1st if you have a CHL you can strap a couple to your hips and do your best Yosemite Sam impersonation - Yee Haw!!!

You claim to rely on facts. You imply your opinions are formed on them so let's look at the facts of Texas CHL crime rates versus the general population. This comes from the Texas Department of Public Safety Regulatory Services Division. I'm thinking they are an unbiased database. These are for the most part violent crimes. I'll give you the punch line (or facts if you prefer). CHL holders, for the most part, commit less than one percent of violent crimes compared to the general population without a CHL, in many cases zero percent. Surprised? You should be based on your previous posts.

Here are some juicy ones that seem to be worth focusing on for 2014: Assault with a deadly weapon 0.19%, Kidnapping 0.0%, Assault on a family member 0.13%, Deadly conduct discharging a firearm 0.57%, Murder 1.3%, Manslaughter 2.7%

And the list goes on for other crimes and years with similar noise levels - this is a far cry from the facts you've been shouting.

Here is a link to go educate yourself if you dare. Be careful with this information - you might actually start using factual information instead of biased websites and the truth will fly in the face of you and your friends. This could make you very unpopular so it may be best to refute it, dismiss it, disregard it or better yet just ignore it as it is a very inconvenient truth.

Texas DPS - CHL Conviction Rates Reports

Wishing you the best,

Jim

Excellent post. The only facts that matter are that it is in fact, as many have pointed out, a personal choice to carry and own a gun. The other fact I see is that the two extreme opposite voices in this thread are set in their ways and won't hear what the other side has to say.

Giller, you keep crying for facts, yet I'm willing to bet that no amount of pro gun facts would change your mind. Similarly ChrisP, a huge study showing negative gun facts wouldn't change a thing in your mind either. I think that's ok...our difference can make us great.

I'm pro gun myself and for many of the reasons that Jim just highlighted. But I at least can see Giller from his point of view. He lives in a Canadian culture that does not promote or glamorize the use of guns. Being from America (maybe with the exception of states like Illinois California or new york) guns are a major part of our culture; heck it's right in our Constitution.

My only point here, is that if you can't at all see the other sides point of view, then there's no reason to even waste your breath arguing about it. You're only going to zoom around in circles.

Cz 52
 

Czech military pistol CZ-52 You can run but you can't hide from this one. the 7.62x25 round will penetrate level 2 armor so it will go right through a car door or window like butter and come out the other side. Not so good for home defence as the bullets go through rather than mushroom in the target.
Accurate to 50 yards.
I take it to the rifle range as the pistol range is not very challenging.

I have one of these in one of my safety deposit boxes. I got back in the 90's when they first started being imported, truly a bear of a pistol. I knew a dealer that was a importer and he must have had hundreds of these and I got to pick through them. I can't remember if it was 1 star or 4 that was the best to have but at the time that was what I got and it looks brand new....I think I paid $100 to my dealer for this another $80 for a case of ammo my buddy and I split 2 ways. Good ole HK roller lock mechanism ....and I don't mean Harmon Kardon

FWIW to many of us owning a gun is a right , just as much as owning a car....not a privilege

I'm not going to argue whether or not you should have a right to have guns but the policies and cultural differences in the some of the southern states were shocking to me as a Canadian. I remember when I went to Orlando 2 years ago you had to be 16 to you use the weight room at the hotel but only 10 to shoot a gun at the range 10 minutes down the road! My visit to the shooting range was my first time shooting a gun and I can recall being really nervous about it (the first thing I shot was an AR15, which actually wasn't bad at all). The instructor reassured me that her 6yr old daughter shoots their family's AR15 all the time and its nothing be afraid about. When we were checking out, the gentleman at the front counter also proudly lifted his sweater to show off his 357 that he said he carries everywhere. Coming from Canada, I literally felt like I was in the wild west.

Personal differences
 

Yes they are quite dynamic, for me as an Instructor I would never condone letting a sub teen shoot any center-fire firearm, it would be a 22LR and for learning a single shot rifle.

I am a Rimfire fanatic, love the old guns and no recoil and no noise

Single-shot .22LR is a great practice round for young'ins. No chance of repeatability.

In Michigan when I was 12 years old the state offered a gun safety program to certify young folks to use a high powered rifle deer hunting. It was about 4 hours long and taught in the local middle school by a state instructor. Can you imagine that today? After the course the kids were certified to hunt without supervision. It was mainly a safety course that I remember (and follow) to this day.

Lol. Yep. That certainly wouldn't fly nowadays.

Yes, I know that - hence I said "with apologies to Timco and others" - I was doing my best to speak to the post and use like language as Petey... so he would understand (and possibly reply as this thread has been entertaining, especially so now that particlewave seems to have gone full potato and left...?). Had this been a movie, or I really put effort into my post, I would have given you the Rickey Bobby, "With all due respect..."

Although, this does raise an interesting question and, with all due respect:

You (and others) seem to feel fine with C&C and carrying in the car... ok. Can't say I'm really bothered by what you and others do. Hasn't impacted my life in any way, and I hope that my life will continue to be conflict free. Yet, didn't we see a post or thread some time ago about you not locking your door to the house? Getting confronted by someone or something during the wee hours of the morn? Having this been, not the first time...? I guess, I'm just confused. You (others) feel you need a gun with you, fine. But, you don't feel obligated to lock your house? That I don't get. I mean, if it is purely a security thing... with the gun toting... why isn't the door locked? Do the other carrying members feel the same way? Do they not lock their house? Is this something that's forgotten, or somehow less important than being out in the wild and possible piece-less?

Sure, maybe you forgot (this one time) and my recall may not be 100%, but were I to feel certain that my life is better when carrying, I would think I would make damn sure my house was also locked every night (yah never know when the "Elders" or "sisters" may come a-knockin' with their backpacks and bicycles... and convert yah with their promises of your own planet in the afterlife ;) Or worse yet, the "solar" dealers or exterminators... I'll be honest, I can't count how many times I'm getting knocks on the door by people claiming they did the lawn care for this house for the previous owner. Guy had a payroll of 14 different companies if I believe what they tell me!). Alarmed, too. Hell, I can't count (yes, I like to count) the times I've circled back around to make sure the garage was closed and it didn't "pop" up for some electrical reason. That may be me, though. What do the other pro-carriers think? Am I the only one that is confused by this math?

As an FYI....if you read my earlier posts, I did post links to a number of facts. Many of those involved people with a license to carry.....and basically summarized you are no safer carrying vs. not carrying. Stats were based on all 50 States. I will certainly check out your link and consider. This was all I was asking goofboy for. Thanks Jim.

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Falling...1b_4456590.gif

Of course you are. Don't let the fact that your hard working, honest and add value to those around you color your view of yourself. You have money which makes you a bad man in the base. Add your white privilege to that you're down right despicable. You left your door unlocked which makes it your fault that poor underprivileged man with a rough upbringing was forced to enter your house. You should be ashamed of yourself for abusing people like that. I'd say you owe that man, everyone on this forum, and the greater metropolitan SLC area an apology.