Ims replacement life
 

I noticed the warranty on a LN ims retrofit is 75k or 6 years. Is the 6 years a real estimate of how long one of these will last before deteriorating just from age or is it just to put a time frame on a warranty, so it is not indefinite? I don't mind dropping the 2k for 75k miles but there is no way I will hit that # in 6 years. Also, are they superior to the porsche original or just a replacement?
Thanks

Getting out the popcorn....

Hmmm. My LN bearing is at about 60K in four years. I hope I don't have to get a new one next year :eek:

I appreciate any feedback. Just trying to get some educated opinions versus the ads I read.

I thought the service life was 50k miles for at least some of LN's bearings...?
I guess it's different for different bearings.

I have a double row, so it'll stay in there until or if I see signs of wear (metal in the filter). When I get to that point, I will be replacing it with an OEM double row ;)
Have you had a look at your flange? You may have a double row.

The current LN recommended replacement is 6 years or 75K miles. That said, many of the installed single and dual row LN bearings have exceeded 75K miles with no apparent problems. To date, I have not heard of a correctly installed LN bearing failing at any mileage level from age or wear.

If you are that concerned about possibly having to replace it, install the IMS Solution instead. With no moving parts and a pressurized oil feed, it will outlive your engine and is considered the only permanent retrofit.

Thanks, for the info JFP. I had read about the solution but unfortunately it is a bit out of my league. Not complaining, just saying. Either way, sounds like the 6 year number is not a definite. Thanks again.

Regarding double or single, I have no idea. It's a 2000 S.

And you won't know until you pull it apart and look at the flange. 2000-2001 cars can go either way, and the only way to know is to pull it apart.

The transition happened in 2000-2001, so you have a 50/50 chance. The only way to know is to look at the flange. I've read that you can do it with a borescope (cheap $5 eBay cable cameras work fine) without removing the tranny, but I've never looked into it. If you have a double, rest easy. ;)

The life expectancy of any bearing is influenced by how well it was installed. SO if the LN bearing was badly installed ......Hopefully yours was installed correctly.
The history of the LN installs is rather boring -nothing happening - good.
The 'competitotrs with all sorts of variations on the theme may be a much more interesting story?
I mean DOF, roller bearings and other often unspecified replacements.

The way I looked at it was this... If I have to replace it every 75k, it's not a permanent solution, so I'm going to install an OEM bearing and at least be able to determine if the bearing is on its way out via debris in the filter, and my physically checking the bearing at an interval in-between.

From what I can tell, you can't detect a failing ceramic bearing in the same way because it is obviously not magnetic, and perhaps much worse for the engine and running surfaces if the balls start to deteriorate to a much finer ceramic particle, if not all out fracture immediately and take out the engine in a few revolutions.

Also worthy of note is that FACT that LN bearings do fail regularly, but every time someone posts online about it, Jake Raby and a few of his minions immediately attack the poster and blame him, the engine or the installer. Sometimes to the point that the poster removes the post completely. Over the years, I've witnessed this behavior on at least half a dozen occasions. Very shady stuff...

I'll never buy an LN bearing.

I would, and did.

In fact, most of the failures were from cars where the old bearing had failed and there was debris in the engine that damaged the new bearing.

Not to say there were not bad bearings.

I think the IMS Solution is the best idea, hands down. It's just so expensive, otherwise I would have gone with that and never worried about the IMS again.

I had a new LN bearing fail.But it had debris from a recent sloppy IMS replacement job done by the P.O. What do I mean by sloppy ? The old IMS failed and spread debris into the oilways. It would have failed the LN pre-qualification tests. But the P.O. went ahead anyway.
He should have replaced the engine with a good used one or had his engine entirely rebuilt correctly. Instead , I got to rebuild it and deal with collateral damage.
But I would not say this was an LN Bearing failure. I never even mentioned it to Jake when discussing other subjects. Fortunately I knew the whole story about the bearing and the engine so I did not mistakenly blame the innocent parties.
Also remember LN do not manufacture the deep groove ball IMS bearing , they researched,tested and then specified it.

If you see metal particles in the oil its too late to change the bearing.

There are also other solutions available. For example this one from Germany. Maybe interesting for guys inside Europe.

Single row (ceramic):FVD Onlineshop - FVD10590103 - Reparatursatz Zwischenwelle "M96.Einzel Lager" CERAMIC -

Double row: FVD Onlineshop - FVD10590104 - Reparatursatz Zwischenwelle "M96.Doppel Lager" -

Toolkit: FVD Onlineshop - FVD10590109 - Werkzeug für Zwischenwellen-Lager (ZW) Reparatur -

They recommend to change it every 100.000 Km or with every clutch.

Regards, Markus

If that were the case, then why would LN sell the IMS Guardian? By your statement, it is completely worthless marketing hype garbage. Not even close to true, but I see that you drank heavily of the JR brand kool-aid, so no point in further discussion. :p

I feel confident with the choice I made. The 119k mile bearing I pulled from my engine was as tight as the replacement I installed so that's proof I need that the bearing design and my specific engine and vehicle usage will lead to another 119k on a plain 6204.

The ultimate solution is to eliminate the bearing altogether. As I said, Raby's IMS solution/plain bearing design is the best option for the M96. The only remaining problem is that you still have the rest of the M96 to deal with...

The Guardian was targeted at the later (2005+) cars which could not be retrofitted in any case without a complete disassembly. Its purpose was to alert the owner to accumulating metal in the oil before the unit failed catastrophically, allowing some of the engine to be saved.

Is there a difference between the steel bearings used by Porsche and in the Pelican sold kits and ceramic bearings. Yes. Cost for one. But the design specs of the ceramic bearings from LN are way way beyond those of the steel ones. And the car owners experiences seem to bear this out.

Are all the Porsche used bearings the same? No. There were three Porsche-installed versions: Double row - good. Single row - worst. Large single row but not easily/cheaply replaceable - better.

LN initially suggested a shorter interval before replacement when they offered their first kits.

Why did they do that? Because initially they weren't able to install enough of their kits and get enough years and miles on them to give them a statistically valid measurement of how long they would last. As installations ran into the thousands and years and miles mounted, they gradually increased the recommended interval. The interval varies with which LN choice your engine accepts and the choice you make. Oh, by the way, LN/Flat6 have produced up to 4 different kit designs that might fit your engine. Some are expected to outlast the car and engine. Some are better than others. Costs are different.

Have there been failures of engines with LN bearings installed? Yes. Some were obvious amateur installations. Force them in sideways and see what happens with any bearing. Don't freeze them, almost sure to fail. Some were put in contaminated engines though the owner would never admit that. Some were even done days before selling the car by shysters. And they were a very few early in the production that showed problems when taken out in the shorter interval then suggested. LN asked for those back. Made good on their guarantee. Even changed one of their designs shortly after production started because of some very few early failures. Haven't seen that type of failure since. And some were installed in engines where the mounting holes for the IMS and the crankshaft weren't aligned with each other correctly from the factory or as the result of a prior failure.

I follow the IMS issue on 7 forums. Have for 7 years or so. Even so I guarantee I don't know it all. I can't recall a failure reported recently in an engine where the pre-installation qualification was done.

Lots of botched installations done by people who had not ever done something like this before.

If you stick with the LN recommended installer, insist on the pre-installation qualification inspections, and have a clean engine with a block where the mounting holes run true to each other, you should be fine. Some online instructions will lead you to big trouble just as they have others. Your approved mechanic will use LN's instructions and tools and may well have been to a class they teach with hands on experience taught by the guys who created to whole IMS replacement kit idea in the US.

Can you do it yourself? Some can. Some obviously couldn't.

LN has sold well over 10k of their kits.

Unfortunately, lots of loyalty driven posts have been seen in the forums on the IMS subject. Some advocacy based on personalities. Some defensiveness of a products reputation based on knowing things from talking to the installer.

Could some of the other bearing designs be better long term? Maybe but none has the years and miles of user experience supporting their claims like the LN products. And many ads seem IMHO to be marketing hype with claims that don't seem to be backed up by any evidence that I've seen of many successful installs with many years and miles.

How much to do/spend on preventative maintenance is up to you.

Ultimately, it is your car, your money, your choice. Good luck.

Thanks guys. All very helpful. I am having mine done next week. Wish me luck. I am paying someone else.

I think the conclusion is the 6 year is more a random warranty number than anything else. 75k will take me 20 years. Good stuff.

That's a good move.

Make sure you get the paperwork, warranty and the serial number of the bearing. (Check this before it is done. Also make sure you're not their first bearing.)
There is a 'sticker' with the LN serial number on it that can be placed on the driver's door jamb next to the VIN/Date sticker.

Will automatically add $2k + to the market value of your car.


I almost bought an '01 S from a guy that did his own IMS in his garage. Was a very, very nice car and the price reflected having the LN bearing.
But, he had no paperwork or even pictures of the process. Plus it was the only one he'd ever done.
So, I passed, as the only way I could be sure would be to pull the trans.
Nope.

Thanks for the excellent review Mike.
Various vendors promoted their IMSB product on the Forums and have been interrogated by curious enthusiasts like me. When we identified possible deficiencies most just failed to respond. Except one company .They answered every question regardless how abusive the tone or how pseudo-knowledgeable the interrogator was. Sometimes the questions were relentless and to fully answer them, proprietary knowledge and research was disclosed. It does not take long to figure out which are the Engineers and which are mere marketers.

you have any empirical data to back that up?

$2K seems like a spurious number. There's a whole market out there that knows nothing about the IMS bearing. You should replace it as insurance against a very possible failure, but mostly replacing it provides a very real peace of mind. I certainly wouldn't do it expecting my resale value to go up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We have done some PPI's on cars with retrofits, and they do seem to add value as well as interest on the buyer's side. How much depends on the overall condition of the car, with IMS Solutions commanding the most money.

Very interesting. Well the kit i posted above is around 600 euros without installation tool kit and 800 euros (approx 900 usd) including installation tools. Pretty shure i get a rebate if i buy 10.

So, i should buy some 986 cars and do some ISMB changes. Could be a nice profit.

Or does maybe the new clutch, clutchplate, 2-mass flywheel and the IMSB update generate the 2.000 USD? :D Than this would be not that profitable. :D ;)

Regards, Markus

I am doing for peace of mind. I didn't know about the serial # sticker. Thanks.

Hmmm. From what I can discern, prices for 986's are nearly identical for cars with or without an IMS fix. Mileage, documented service history, and condition are the key factors that influence price and overwhelm whatever small contribution that an IMS fix might have on pricing.

And with over 200,000 Boxster's built and only 10,000 retrofit kits sold, there is still only about a 5% chance that a car has been updated - 95% still have the original IMS bearing.

I have to say, with all the time I've spent on various car forums I've never seen a topic as contentious as the debate on what IMS bearing is best. I was doing a bit of research on what kit I should buy when I get around to doing the IMS and 95% of the information I came across was either uneducated opinion, conjecture, or just straight up bs. It was like wading through a steaming pile of crap to find that one piece of what I thought was reliable information. Interestingly enough, I went to a PCA approved shop in my area that has done many of these retrofits to see what the owner thought. I was ready to tell him to retrofit my car right then and there but instead he told me to change my oil frequently (5000km max) in the meantime and just do the IMS when it came time to do my clutch. He told me he's had several single row boxsters that have done over 200000km with no issues. The general impression I got from him was that the whole issue is overblown.

Agreed -assuming someone like JFP replaced the IMSB !
But in my case I should have bought a car still .with the original IMSB. Then replaced it myself. Instead I foolishly bought a car that had a replacement IMSB slapped in on an engine that would have failed it's Pre-Qualification checks.
The IMSB replacement is only as good as the Installer. The discussion of materials and designs is secondary in my experience.

The actual number of LN retrofits (all types) is closer to 20,000.

The actual number of LN retrofits (all types) is closer to 20,000.

In the same sense that a car with a low mileage clutch and new tires may fetch more than an exactly similar car with a 80K clutch and nearly dead tires, buyers that recognize the cost to do a retrofit also recognize its value in a car already done. That said, there needs to be supporting documentation from the shop that did it, or you need to be able to see the oil line of the IMS Solution with the car on a lift before it hits home.

I didn't realize installation error was such a common occurrence...

It would be interesting to see how they did it at the factory.

Porsche's original bearing must be the best then cause I'm still on my original factory bearing 15 yrs later. 01 986 with 72k miles, oil changed with Mobil 1 0w-40 every 15k miles or 2 years! :) Still rockin and rollin.

It was pressed into the shaft while being held in a fixture so nothing could move out of alignment. All done in one clean movement.

Unfortunately, the field retrofit process has one correct method and an infinite number of ways to do it wrong.

Wrong, friend had his dual row in for clutch / ims. There was a bunch of metal in the ims tube bearing was just about to go. They cleaned it out did a few low km oil changes its been a year and the car is fine

Your friend 's experience is vastly in the minority. We have on several occasions declined to retrofit cars because metal was found during the pre-inspection process. Of those cars which were subsequently retrofitted by others, to date, none have survived. While some lived longer than others, they all eventually succumbed, mostly to bearing failures. The worst one did not make it 50 miles.

Retrofitting one of these cars that already has metal in the oil is to take on a very long odds scenario; a few may win, but most do not.