The unlucky 1%
 

Apparently I am one of the unlucky 1%! My cheap 99 boxster has a bad IMS. I am not overly surprised or upset, at least fixing it will remove that big unknown.

I drained the oil and dropped the sump. See the attached picture of debris I found in the sump. Most of it is plastic but there were 2 metal pieces large enough to pick out. They appear to be part of a ball bearing, about 4.8 mm long, ferrous.

Showed the picture to a Porsche mechanic. He said, "That is IMS debris, don't start the engine until it is fixed!"

I will be ordering the bearing, RMS and clutch in the next few days. A friend and I will do the repair........


http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1452815204.jpg

Sorry to hear about the news. I am glad to hear that you caught it before total destruction though. I have an oil change coming up shortly and wondering if I shouldn't drop my pan also. What is the car history, mileage, etc.? Please update, as you can, during your rebuild. Best of luck.

Thanks. Yes, rather fix it than replace the engine!

No real history on the car, it's been pretty much sitting for a couple years. 87K

If anyone has the IMS tools they would be willing to rent, please PM me. Thanks

I bought a cheap one with no history too. Impulse buy. Anyway, a friend helped destroy the clutch about 3 months after I got it. Had all the same work done about a year ago. After the work is done you will not believe how much more you'll appreciate that IMS insurance policy you just took out.

You should consider taping (wrapped black electrical tape works well) magnets on your filter and it is a good idea to glue magnets to the bottom of your sump to trap the metal in your oil. Your IMS is pretty far gone, that looks like the bearing cage. If you go with an open bearing it it critical that no metal debris gets into the new bearing or the new bearing will begin to self destruct and won't last long (like 500 miles or less). If the new bearing is damaged (in this case by debris) the small damaged spots in the bearing create more small damaged spots and so on until the bearing is destroyed. Metal in the oil will kick off this process. I would consider going back with a sealed bearing after cleaning as much metal out of the oil as possible and using the magnet trick.

I had already purchase the spin on filter adapter and a filter mag. Friend advised me to use Joe Gibbs BR oil in it for 100 miles before switching to the normal oil.

So hopefully this will capture anything flowing through the oil system in very short order. I may even swap out the filter and dissect it after the first test drive.

I have the full set of IMS tools from LN Engineering. I will send a PM.

I bought a '99 from the original owner with 84K on the clock. He had never changed the IMS bearing.
Clutch was going away so I changed the IMS and RMS while they had it unbuttoned.
The IMS bearing was actually in great condition. The seals were good and the bearing spun smoothly.
I can tell you I do feel much better Knowing I have a new, redesigned LN bearing in it.

tim

So what is the ultimate IMS fix? I have read about the ceramic ball bearing and the constant oil feed. This forum is full of a lot of research and installation tips. Do we need a sticky on "the" fix?

The only "ultimate" or permanent IMS fix is the LN IMS Solution, which is an oil fed solid bearing with no moving parts. All other approaches using roller or ball bearings have fixed life expectancies of differing lengths, but will eventually need replacing.

JP thanks, As an "outsider, however, it is not clear to me that the "solid bearing" is the fix. At least one knowledgeable diy person here stated the solid cannot be implemented. On the you tube I watched it seemed like they were pressurizing a ball bearing. Also does the solid bearing approach somehow run the journal on aluminum inserts, or is machining done for snap- in conventional bearing inserts. Please note this is not criticism, just trying to understand. Not an owner but admirer .

Then you need to let that person know that shops are installing them everyday, and they work.

This is the IMS Solution:

http://theimssolution.com/wp-content...S-patent-1.jpg

It comes in both single and dual row bearing sizes, has no ball or rollers of any kind. The bearing surface is coated with DLC ultra durable coating. It is oiled by a line running from the spin on filter adaptor to the unit, and is a patented design:

http://theimssolution.com/wp-content...on-diagram.jpg

This system basically mimics the incredibly strong lay shaft bearings used in the Mezger designed and nearly bullet proof 996/997 Turbo engines, and is the only replacement system that does so. Some of the aftermarket oil fed systems are simply squirting oil on the back of the OEM steel bearings, which is actually not a good idea as it can lead to problems both with the ball bearing IMS, and how they source the oil feed has created other problems as well. The IMS Solution system works flawlessly, and is the only permanent IMS retrofit.

There is more than a bit of economics that comes into play when choosing a IMS bearing kit to use unless you are super rich, are blindly loyal to one producer or are unerringly convinced of the logic behind the marketing justification for some kit. How much to spend is really an important element in most people's decision.

Just within the LN/Flat6 line I'd describe the three kits for the 2000-2004 single row engines this way:

The Solution - Appropriate if you are in love with the car, are going to keep it forever, and are going to spend about $12k to $25k doing other upgrades to parts that have become known as weak spots in the engine. This bearing is similar to what is on the other end of the IMS shaft and we never hear of those failing. 100s installed. Highest priced.

The IMS Pro - the dual ceramic bearings into a single bearing space kit is intermediate in cost, not as many installed to prove their true longevity but a good reputation. Appropriate if you are going to keep on top of any issues, want to keep the car for another 5-7 years and you'll be doing lots of preventative maintenance as you can to keep it running smoothly. 100s installed.

The LN single row ceramic bearing kit - lowest in cost, good for 50k+ miles but probably needs to be replaced at some point if the car hasn't crashed or failed by then for one of the other 29 reasons known to bring engines down in the M96 line. 10k ++ installed. Longest installed in largest quantity so a well known reputation.

Outside the LN line, there are other approaches that use lots of different materials, lubrication methods, etc. Lots of different costs too.

How much any of these are tested before being marketed I'll leave to your due diligence.

No matter what you choose, the condition of the engine prior to the replacement of the IMS is a major determinant in the longevity of your replacement. Dirt grinds away at moving parts. Metal flakes grind expensively and often fatally.

And the skill of the installer matters too. Choose your mechanic before you choose your kit.

The OPs 99 is a dual row, and the LN release of the dual row Solution ^tm is fairly recent.

They are on the shelf and ready to ship as of the New Year.

To the OP,
Wait. You're not going to just change the IMS bearing and "do the clutch and IMS while you're in there" are you?

Pelican IMS "Factory Style" replacement kit - $165. Just like the factory. Be sure to use the proper installation tools!

2003 Porsche Boxster Base Convertible - Camshafts & Timing Chains - Page 3

-Wayne

??? Uhm, yes. IMS, RMS and clutch while the tranny is off. Am I missing something?

I had your story crossed up with the other guy who had his engine make terrible noise and cut his filter open to find a mess. Two recent members that lunched engines i guess.

If the IMS bearing really came apart you have two immediate risks. First that your valve timing (re: "deviations") will be all over the place, and may have had valves and pistons colliding. Second, your engine pumped broken the debris through. Those pieces can't exactly fall from their normal locations into the pan. Judging be their appearance they took a trip through a timing chain sprocket or oil pump.

The sad part about the M96 engine is that you can't determine the extent without tearing it downand the risks of collateral damage is high.

I hope I'm wrong though

Flaps10, Thanks for the concern. I am hopeful that it had just started to fail. The pic is of the only 2 identifiable metal bits in the oil sump. My quick inspection of the filter did not reveal anything. I am going to tear it apart this evening for a closer look. I will post pics if I find anything.

I am kind of taking the attitude that even if I do find some very small metal particles in the filter, I am just going to change the IMS, flush the oil and hope for the best. I don't see that the 2.5 engine is worth tearing down. Even if I do it myself, it would cost more than a used engine. So, I am probably going to fix the IMS, put it back together and see what happens.

That being the case, I would highly recommend using the Pelican Parts IMS Kit that Wayne linked, rather than going with one of the more expensive LN kits. If properly installed, it should last as long as a clutch.
When you do the IMS Bearing be sure to follow Jake Raby's procedure of locking cams with the engine at TDC, rather then using the set-screws included with the Pelican Parts kit. People have had the IMS shift or set-screws fall into the engine. :eek:

This is the certainty of what the OP's debris shows. I cannot imagine that at this point, there is no destructive debris throughout the engine, but no way to know 100% without a complete tear down. An IMS fix at this point is probably a waste of money, the horse has already left the barn.

Not to be a jerk, but I disagree that you were unlucky in that you bought the car without a PPI. However you are lucky that you paid very little for the car being a salvage title. So that was a weird sort of blessing. Without the salvage title you would have paid market rate and lost more money.
You can probably sell it as a roller and lose a grand or two. But I don't think any competent Porsche mechanic will agree to replace an IMS bearing that has already disintegrated. The debris that has made into the tight passages will take down the engine sooner than later and cause a more expensive fix than simply doing a rebuild. Best bet is to find a cheap 2.5 donor engine for about $3K, maybe $5K all in with labor if you're lucky.

Thank you responders. I think this may be one of the best current summaries in the forum. So no matter the source of the "kit" the producers have not (apparently) performed reliability studies. Understood in view of the expense.

While I appreciate everyone's opinions, and all of you know far more about this than I do, I am not willing to pronounce the patient DOA just yet. I will closely look at the oil filter tonight. I already know that it doesn't look anything like some of the examples I have seen here. There were no obvious bits of metal when I took a quick look at it last week.

Beyond that, it is really all a guess until I get the old IMS out. Maybe a new IMS is a waste of money. Maybe the engine will last 100 miles, 1000 miles or maybe 20,000 miles. That being the case, it seems that I should go with the least cost IMS option considering it may be lost money. For the most part, the rest is my time and the fluids required, so not a large dollar investment.

If it blows up in short order, I can get a used engine and install it. Put a new IMS in that one with the same clutch and down the road. I did not expect to get into this thing without spending money on it, and I did get it cheap. It is just a question of potentially wasting $400 on this engine or spending $3K on a replacement.

Either way, it will be an adventure!

Wouldn't you want to just avoid the hassle of doing something twice? Taking down the transmission to replace an IMS is no small task. Some very experienced DIY'ers have done it but I can't recall any who tackled this knowing the IMS had already compromised the engine. Maybe you can score a good deal on 2.5 now that it's the dead of winter and the spec racers are all home nursing their racing budgets. If you wait until spring or summer a good donor engine may be harder to find and the asking prices will certainly be higher. And who wants to go through having to sort out engine issues twice.
Unless this Boxster has a documented history of many important repairs (water pump, AOS, suspension, brakes/wheel bearings/etc.) that in aggregate can easily exceed the resale price of the car, then I would also consider simply selling this as a running condition roller and buying another cheap 2.5 Boxster that checks out. Chalk this up to a learning exercise. It's a slippery slope that I know all too well. You might end up pouring more money into this car than you could have otherwise spent on a mintier condition Boxster from a more recent model year without all the trips to garage. Or if you do like to wrench on the car yourself, you'd still be better off with a Boxster with a bigger engine/less mileage since the ownership cost would be lower from all your non-engine related DIY repairs/maintenance.

?

Ln has a ton of their bearings in existence and they have even elongated the expected service life because they do so well. So maybe outside of ln there isn't much data on reliability but other than that I'm not sure what you're talking about?

I know it's a minority opinion and you don't seem to care for votes, but I say IF you enjoy working on cars and have a healthy curiosity about Boxsters go ahead.
As you have said, if the engine fails, you have lost under $1k and gained some significant experience. Having replaced an engine and IMS bearing, I know that doing it a second time will go a lot smoother and faster.

Your engine IS compromised and short of spending much more than it is worth, it can not be 'saved'. The failed 2.7 that I pulled apart was full of debris, most of it was aluminum which will not stick to a magnet. Much of the fine debris was adhering to plastic parts and was still very difficult to remove completely in a parts washing tank with a brush.

Worst case: Soon after you reinstall the engine it will catastrophically fail and the car will need to be towed. I wouldn't plan on taking it for any cross country trips.

Best case: Your engine makes it another 5k-10K miles before the wear from damage and tiny particles finally finish it off. At 2k miles a year, that could be 5 years.

Edit: If you do it, drive it hard and enjoy it; push it to its eventual demise. No sense in taking the trouble if you are going to worry and fear every time you take it out.

There are a fair number of folks out there who have changed out the IMS AFTER finder metal debris and have lived to drive another day. Actually, many many days.

Roll the dice, take your chances. You got the car on the cheap - worst case, you put a few bucks into a fix, it doesn't work - take it as a (hopefully) fun learning experience and then either go get another engine or a newer Box.

Either way, good luck!

Looking again at the photo's of the metal bits ksjohn put up, I'm not convinced they are from the IMS bearing. If they were part of the cage, you would expect much more ferrous debris in the filter and lying in the oil pan. Maybe from the timing chains or valve assembly???.
But the OP has been lucky in his car purchase, perhaps he will be just as lucky with this.....
If it was me, before I spent another cent, I would drop the transmission (which is free if you do it yourself) and remove the IMS bearing & check for metal in the IMS tube. The condition of the bearing + clutch + flywheel etc would determine my next course of action.

^ good point. The IMS is often blamed by mechanics without a real post mortem autopsy but IMS bits all about is just collateral IMS damage from a bigger failure.

Hey does anyone remember the one Scandinavian guy who found metal just as he was changing his filter? He paid a few grand to have the IMS swapped, thought he dodged a bullet and then we never heard from him again.

OK, I tore apart the the OEM oil filter. Attached is a pic. And yes, there were tiny bits of steel in there. Not a lot, but more than anyone would like to find. I am sure they will play hell with some bearing surfaces. But then again, there may have been a total of 30 flecks of metal much smaller than the head of a pin.

Steve, that is what I intend to do. Take off the tranny and pull the bearing and see what condition it is in. If the IMS is in perfect condition (which I seriously doubt), then I will have to look for problems elsewhere. Until I take things apart, everything is just speculation.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1453245906.jpg

I agree with 78F350 with his best case/worst case scenario.

Pack light and travel with a companion that has a good sense of humor.

I have AAA and I know how to use it! :)

Oh, and regardless, it will get driven hard! No sense in having a Porsche if you are not going to have your foot in it all the time.

Anyway, it won't be the first engine that I have made go BANG!!! :)

jdraup, With regard to reliability I was referring to engineering type studies where (I think) accelerated usage and stress is used to predict MTBF etc. Help please from engineering types out there. My point was that no aftermarket supplier can afford to perform such "elegant" studies and so must rely on feedback from owners while holding breath.

Edit: Just a thought...Do oil analyses which detect fine traces offer anything sooner to the Boxter owner compared to the filter dissection? The oil analysis I did (another car) came back with a statement something like..." your oil shows normal characteristics of the engine class xxx."

Some potentially loaded questions there Arthro (you can start a fist fight in most forums with an oil analysis discussion). I'll only focus on reliability studies in this response.

I'm not usually the first to stick up for Mr Raby but I respect his work. If anyone has gone out and built engines and blown them up (at his own expense) and documented the results it has been him. That information is justifiably proprietary, but his most notable result is the plain bearing "Solution".

The thing that makes it risky for a company like his is that if some geek like myself can get hold of the parts and install them then a whole lot of unknown variables enter the picture (initial condition of the engine, quality of the install, etc). The Solution won't resurrect a zombie, but people seem to want to try.

People want to compare the warranty of the various options and are somehow surprised that the warranty on a sub $1000 kit wouldn't cover your smoking boat anchor engine with a rod sticking out the side, because surely there could be no other reasons for a subsequent engine failure.

Had it been available for dual row cars at the time I had my engine apart I would certainly have selected it. As it stands, it's not hard to improve on the factory selection.

Well just tell me to STFU if I am asking too many questions. I looked again at the youtubes and some topics occurred to me. Re corrosion: the pictures of the races and metal balls look just like failed wheel bearings to me and don't see any pitting outside of the contacting surfaces. Has anyone sectioned an IMS "tube" where the alleged corrosive fluids reside to look for pitting?

Way back the VW hotrodders had a trick ball bearing lower end "OKRASA" or some such. Seems like the ball bearing application was inferior to plain bearings due to short life. Just ref.

Finally:So the LN fix is similar to a cam running in machined webs with oil feed holes?

No fist fights intended , but how about the oil analysis. They use it in aircraft engine analysis, right, flaps10?

Edit: You tube said something about an electronic monitor of the IMS??? Hype?

The LN bearings (non Solution) are ceramic hybrids that are sufficiently lubricated by the oil mist inside the engine. They do not require any other modifications to work, and some modifications actually reduce their effectiveness.

Oil analysis (that is, a complete analysis rather than a partial one) can tell you a lot about your oil, and a little about your engine. Some labs claim to be able to provide you with a complete analysis of your engine condition by looking at the oil, but you should take that with a grain of salt. They act more like a compass, giving you a sense of direction rather than a GPS telling you exactly where you are.

LN does produce an oil monitoring sensor (Guardian) which is effective, but only in limiting the amount of damage done when the IMS fails. It is not capable of preventing it from failing, only alerting you earlier in the failure process.

The LN ceramic bearing was designed with the cooperation of a bearing engineer who did predictive modeling. That engineer was retired from the bearing manufacture you probably think of first. He was also a Porsche owner.

Those materials and method of lubrication have now been installed over 12k times. I was initially skeptical of the testing done but time and miles have proven their design better than their initial cautious estimates and marketing materials.