Discussion about a Boxster being an "investment"

[rick3000]

I do not see the 986 as an investment, considering the maintenance costs it would be the worst investment I have ever made. If you are buying a mass produced car as an investment you really need to reconsider. That said, I do see 986 prices stabilizing and even rising.

I would say 986 prices bottomed a few years ago, and have been climbing very, very, very slowly since. I think this is likely because as the original and 2nd owners have unloaded them in the sub-$10k range, the buyers in the sub-$10k range are balking when hit with the high maintenance costs (which is completely reasonable when you compare the maintenance cost to the value of the car). This leads to a lot of 986's being taken off the road, which thins the supply, pushing prices up, very, very slowly.

This is nothing new, and happens to almost all Porsches at some point. Just look at the used 911 market over the last several years. Or the 944, or the 914 over the last 30 years. If you still have a good condition, low mileage 986 in 30 years it might be worth something, but you will have probably spent five times the profit on maintenance by then.


@ Luv2Box, all Porsches get classified as 'classic' after a certain number of years. It just means the price of spare parts goes up, as they produce smaller batches less often.

[Perfectlap]

It sounds to me like you're trying to keep up a hobby you enjoy while making a little money or at a minimum hit BEP (break even point), all without putting out a great sum of money before you sell the car.

If that's your plan I would say it will NOT work with water cooled Porsches. The cars that can most insure you get your money back, air cooled, are expensive to buy now because of their limited availability, so right off the bat before you've bought a single spark plug you've committed a great deal of money. The costs to restore the car can easily mushroom out of control. And the buyers will not pay top dollar unless the car is worked on by someone with a great deal of experience with Porsche.

Meanwhile, the problem with the water cooled cars is that people who can afford to maintain and repair these cars are not generally interested in keeping them long term, they dump them to buy a new car. And the people who will buy an old sports car by and large are skittish about German luxury brands. So you're catering to a very small pool of buyers who will all drive a hard bargain. If your costs get out of control you'll be lucky to sell at a profit.

I think your current plan is better, stick with popular Japanese cars. These have more buyers, and those buyers see these cars as daily drivers and scratch the sports car itch.
If you like a 928 or 944 it's good that your handy because eventually the only people driving these cars will be DIY'ers because of the costs of parts and labor will be too high for most. As far as the 986/987 and 996/997, their futures are a bit uncertain. High mileage examples will need costly engine work to address lifters, IMS/clutch, water pump, AOS, etc., the costs of these in parts can easily exceed the value of the cars, definitely once you add in suspension overhaul. Sure you can buy a roller and drop in a low mileage donor engine but that's going to scare off many prospective buyers who, as Warren Buffett would say, generally avoid buying what they don't understand, unless it involves home mortgages.

Originally Posted by Prelude Guy

Hi all,

First off, I wanted to introduce myself. I am new to the forums. My name is Andy. I have been a car-guy my whole like. I was 9 when my dad bought his new 1986 Honda Accord and it's the car that got me into cars. Obviously, I am a Honda guy at heart. I love all cars though. My username is because of my old 1992 Prelude Si 4WS with a JDM VTEC swap in it. To date, the most enjoyable car to drive and own to-date that I've owned.

I currently have 4 cars. 2 projects cars -1989 240SX hatchback with an SR20DET engine swap with basic bolt-ons and a Garrett GT2560R turbo and a 1997 BMW M3 coupe with minor bolt-ons. My daily driver is a 1997 Honda Accord LX station wagon with 275K miles. I installed several OEM Prelude upgrades as well as a 2.3L SOHC VTEC Honda Accord F23A engine from the 1998-2001 chassis. Planning to do some minor suspension upgrades and possibly a 220HP Euro R Accord H22 swap with LSD trans soon. Finally, I still have the first car I bought brand new. A 2001 BMW 325ci automatic. Completely stock with OEM 18" wheels from a 2009 335i. Never driven in the snow and rarely in the rain. Fantastic shape.

Ok, with that out of the way, I have somewhat of a weird question for you. As you can see based on the cars I drive, I like cars from the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's. I am a little older now and have decided, even though I can afford ~$100K car, I prefer to buy older cars. There's just something about the older more raw cars from that time. I don't enjoy the driver-assisted cars of today. In fact, I think my attitude towards new cars is widely shared and is growing in popularity. I think the trend we will see is car-guys will likely still buy new cars, but they will also look to own an older car as their "fun car"/weekend car.

A little background on what I do with cars. I have been buying up older cars, fixing them, keeping them as close to stock, but mainly focusing my efforts on refreshing the car and bringing them up-to-date on the maintenance. The emphasis is on making the car better than when it came from the factory. Like with my 240SX. I bought a clean chassis that had a blown engine. I planned on swapping out the engine. I did the fewest modifications to make more power, but still be as reliable as possible. The rest of the money went towards refreshing the suspension with as many OEM/300ZX OEM upgrades/Nismo parts as possible. Things like shocks and springs are aftermarket, as well as exhaust, strut tower bars, anti-swaybars and wheels. The end goal of my cars are to be a car that enthusiasts want to buy since most older cars are hacked up and pieced together with aftermarket parts without any attention to normal maintenance.

My three used cars have proven to be good investments. I can sell my 240SX, M3, and Accord wagon for as much as I have put into them, if not more. I bought all 3 when the market for them hit rock-bottom. Bought my 240SX for $750 12 years ago, M3 for $4K 4 years ago, and my wagon for $2500 4 years ago. I think as time marches on, they will continue to go up in value as clean cars from that era will become harder and harder to find, especially in good condition.

This thought process has led me to here. I planned on adding a 1987+ 928 and a 1987-1989 944 to my collection and do the same thing to them a few years ago when they were selling for next to nothing. I missed out on those two cars. I noticed the Boxster has hit the bottom. I never really cared for the Boxster because I preferred the S2000. I think the 986 Boxster is an under-rated car - then and now. I feel this car will become more desired as the years pass by, mainly because they will become rare since many are blowing engines at an alarming rate.

So my question is, do you guys think the 986 would be a good car to do what I have done to my other cars? Pick up a roller for around $2500, focus the money on making the engine reliable (seriously considering a rebuilt and upgraded 2.9L from a company like Raby). Can you see a 986 with all of the engine issues resolved, everything works, and is well-taken care of selling for around $20K in the next 5-7 years? I can see that happening.

Your thoughts?

[jdraupp]

Yeah, don't own a Porsche because you're trying to invest. That only worked for guys who bought 356s in the 70s and stored them or early 911s in the 80s. Your best bet for an investment Porsche would be a mid 70s air cooled 911sc. Those are about at the bottom of the air cooled bubble and if you can get one in good shape sub 20k you'll see that back in a few years. Boxsters? No way. I don't see the 944 appreciating and those are way older than the boxster. The only 928 that will maybe appreciate is a 5 speed car you get dirt cheap or the later gts.

[Luv2Box]

"@ Luv2Box, all Porsches get classified as 'classic' after a certain number of years. It just means the price of spare parts goes up, as they produce smaller batches less often."
Actually it means more than that. As long as Porsche is in business parts will be available either from Porsche or third parties. Porsche parts are expensive now and the argument about price can always be made but the reality is they will be available. If an owner doesn't want to spend the money on genuine parts then at least third party, sometimes at a cheaper rate, will also be available and many times they are from the same supplier of genuine parts. The point is we can keep our cars running in one way or another.
As a Porsche classic some future purchaser of an early 986 can send the car to Porsche for a complete restoration. I know that sounds crazy now but who knows what will take place in the future as interests change.
If I had the money to buy what I think is an underpriced Porsche model destined to go up in price I'd put my money in a 996 turbo. One of the best motors ever made by Porsche and currently dirt cheap compared to other turbo models. They are ignored by the air cooled frenzy and the fact they look too much like a Boxster in the front, have cheaper interiors (full leather is the preferred) and are reviled by the hard core 911 group makes them a solid buy.

[papasmurf]

Originally Posted by jdraupp

I don't see the 944 appreciating and those are way older than the boxster. The only 928 that will maybe appreciate is a 5 speed car you get dirt cheap or the later gts.

Because the early water cooled cars are certainly rising in value, in particular the turbo's, 968, and any 928 with a stick, granted they are not rising like the 911 SC's did a few years back but they are rising. Equal mileage 944 S2 and turbos will bring the same if not more than a boxster of similar condition and mileage. I routinely see boxsters on CL in my general area for 5-7k

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Luv2Box

Hate being the one to break this to you but according to Porsche the '97-04 986 is a Classic.
Porsche Classic - Information about your Porsche vintage car - Porsche Cars North America
One can argue all they want over the validity but to Porsche they are and that's all that counts to the owners.

Hate to break it to you....but a 'classic' is not a 'collectible'. Classic simply refers to the time it's been around and designates the brand will continue to produce parts. Has nothing to do with value or an Investment.

So even to Porsche - they are not a Collectible.

[Luv2Box]

Originally Posted by Giller

Hate to break it to you....but a 'classic' is not a 'collectible'. Classic simply refers to the time it's been around and designates the brand will continue to produce parts. Has nothing to do with value or an Investment.

So even to Porsche - they are not a Collectible.

Wasn't saying it was a collectible or an investment, I was referring to this statement of yours.
" No way this car ever becomes a 'classic' and an investment."

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Luv2Box

Wasn't saying it was a collectible or an investment, I was referring to this statement of yours.
" No way this car ever becomes a 'classic' and an investment."

Gotcha....my mistake. I misspoke when I used the term Classic earlier on.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

If you like a 928 or 944 it's good that your handy because eventually the only people driving these cars will be DIY'ers because of the costs of parts and labor will be too high for most.

This is absolutely correct. Four out of every five Porsche-only independent shops that I contact won't even touch my son's 944 Turbo. None of their tech's known anything about trouble-shooting a pre-OBDII car, the parts are very hard to find, and the repair expense is almost always unjustified based on the low value of the car.

[husker boxster]

It seems we've scared PG off or he's inwardly digesting our 28 pearls of wisdom.

[lkchris]

Originally Posted by Giller

... and most importantly - they only made around what, 100,000 914 whereas the Boxster has been produced in the 100s of thousands and still going.

Well, you may be interested in these North America sales figures from Wikipedia ...

2003
911 9,935
Boxster 6,432
Cayenne 13,661

2004
911 10,227
Boxster 3,728
Cayenne 19,134

2005
911 10,653
Boxster 8,327
Cayenne 14, 524

Don't care much about Cayennes, but still today Porsche continues to sell more 911s than Cayman/Boxster combined.

Bottom line is I wouldn't reference the "large quantities" of Boxsters so loudly.

But, given that the 911 has outsold the Boxster, the more popular model may indeed hold its value better in the long run.

Nobody in the real world calls the Boxster a hairdressers' car and in fact it's without question a really real Porsche. Sharing components with the 911 is better than sharing a whole platform or an engine with a VW/Audi I think.

I'd easily wager Boxsters will hold more value than an SLK Mercedes or a BMW Z, as it's the Porsche experience and feel that neither of those has. Neither of those has anything like the charisma, and of course anything Oriental is a writeoff and hardly worth mentioning. As I write this, qualityporscheparts on eBay has a 2004 4.5 l Turbo Cayman V8 and a 2000 Boxster S engine, both with over 100K miles and both priced at $3K.

Yes, lots of Boxsters will likely go away due to "expensive parts," but this is false economy IMHO. It's an expensive, low volume car, and from Germany where nothing's cheap ... and the pricing seems fairly realistic given the real world economic facts. How can you realistically expect anything different? Parts prices have zero relationship to used car lot prices in any event ... but lots of guys with stars in their eyes may think so.

And hey, they have six cylinders and you can't get that anymore.

[mikefocke]

I was at a car restoration and brokerage service a few days ago. I was surprised at how low the prices were for what looked to me like very well finished restorations. And I got to thinking that we all want the cars we couldn't have when we were 15. But that means that as folks age, they become able to afford those toys and demand drives up prices. But the next generation may not have the same memories of that particular car and the prices can drop. Looking at the cars earlier than the '60s I saw that and even some of the '60s cars were asking nothing like the Barret-Jackson prices.

Buy a $2500 roller and put a Raby engine in? Only if you love the car and intend to drive it forever. Price one of those engines! You'll not be getting half that in the next 10 years because there are thousands for unmodified cars for sale competing with you every month. And only 10% of buyers will value the specific upgrades like you did. I think you'll be lucky to get what a roller and a stock engine out of a wreck would cost.

Good luck whatever you do.

They are great cars.