ugh...ferrous metal found...
 

So, I was changing the oil tonight in my car and upon inspecting the filter and magnetic drain plug, ferrous metal and other material was found. About the car...

2002
2.7L
5spd manual
141,000 miles
purchased in may 2014 with 136,000 miles
I replaced the IMS bearing last winter at 138,600 miles (pelican bearing)
last oil change was 4/10/15 while IMS bearing was replaced
(this oil change was supposed to be done in october but time got away from me)

My next course of action is to remove the oil pan and see what I find.

My guess is that the install was either not done correctly or this bearing was garbage to begin with. Pictures to follow of the drain plug and oil filter. It does not look as bad as some other posts I have seen here, so I am hoping I caught this really early! I suspect I will have to pull the engine and start playing detective, but I do know where I am starting. Any other feedback from what the other material is from the filter would be appreciated. Or any feedback for that matter would be appreciated.
Pictures to follow...

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1449704399.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1449704430.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1449704460.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1449704534.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1449704565.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1449704588.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1449704610.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1449704630.jpg

Probe the hole where the filter mounts with your finger to find more metal.
Do you inspect the filter everytime you change oil?
Drop the sump plate next to see whats there. Be sure to inspect oil pickup screen for anything there & clean as needed.

Did you inspect the IMSB that you removed??

Dropping the sump plate is my next move. I do inspect the filter everytime. This is the 5th oil change I have done on the car. I will see whats up the oil filter intake. If there are only a few specks in there, do you think I can get away without ripping the engine out and doing a tear down? (assuming I caught this early enough and its the ims bearing?)

Have you ever seen metal in filter before? Was the original IMSB in good shape?

Never had any metal in the past. The old bearing was still good but it looked like the grease was starting to get washed out of it.

Hopefully it's just normal for the mileage. Check the sump & report back. If nothing huge in sump I would reinstall it & finish oil change, then check filter every 500 miles.

Will do. Thank you! What else could ferrous metal come from in that engine?

Have you verified that the pieces are metal?

The little black specs are not metal but i did pick up a little bit of metal with a magnet. Just not a whole lot. Most of it was on the magnetic drain plug.

I'm guessing those black specs are part of the chain ramps. As for ferrous metal, it was such a small amount. I'll pull the sump off tomorrow. I need to go find some loctite 5900 or equivalent so I can reassemble (assuming no problems).

Viper, what did the magnetic sump plug look like @ the last oil change or have you just installed it? My LN magnetic plug looked the same as yours the first time I replaced the oil, but it had cleaned up considerably @ the second oil change.
The filter pics are difficult to see what is metal and what is reflection, but its not as bad as some we've seen in the past.
The plastic bits certainly look like chain ramp material, but considering your mileage, its nor bad at all.
The sump removal will reveal all.....

This is what a real problem looks like;

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1b61beb0.jpg

Steve, the magnetic plug has been in there for about 3 or 4 changes now. I do not recall the last oil change having the plug looking like this one.

The filter pictures don't show any metal, those are all plastic bits. The metal I pulled out of the filter was only a few (maybe 4 or 5) sand grain size pieces of ferrous metal. I'm going to try to pull the sump plate this afternoon. I will put that info and pics on here when I do that.

I have had magnetic drain plug last 3 changes. I have always seen a thin film of black slug, no specs as OP's show
I tried to see if anything from the plug would stick to a magnet but that doesn't work.
What I did find by accident the last time was I rubbed the film off on to tissue paper and when I put a magnet to the film stain, it was attracted to the magnet. I think there was a tread about this before but I could find it with search.

I haven't cut open my filter yet as Expansion tank replace took priority

I hope you find your sump clean. I have done that a couple times and that does give me some piece of mind to find it and the filter debris free

Ok, so I finally pulled the oil sump and it looks really good! Just a couple bits of chain ramp material. http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450209422.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450209442.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450209462.jpg

However, when I wiped up some of the oil from inside the sump plate, i noticed a few metallic looking specs which turned out to be magnetic...
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450209606.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450209630.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450209651.jpg


And I also noticed that there are cracks inside the sump plate, has anyone else ever seen this? and can I still reuse this cover? No leaks before removal...
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450209730.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450209752.jpg

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450209784.jpg


So, where do I go from here? Is this amount of metal normal? Should I just put this all back together and check again in a few hundred miles?

I would replace the sump plate.

If you plan on doing any HPDE or tracking, it would be a good idea to replace it with a deep sump. It holds a litte more oil and makes it much less likely to get oil starvation in a high G turn at the track

How were the cracks caused?
1. road debris ?
2. jacking under the sump
3.'off-roading' ?
I ask because perhaps the metallic debris is related to the incident that cracked the sump plate ?
Since your plate is cracked, you need a deep sump(Mantis /FVD?) not just an space+baffle kit.

I am really not sure how they got there. I never bottomed out with it but the previous owner probably did. I didn't jack the car up from there but i did support it on that plate while replacing the front engine mount. This was last year.

Loctite 5900 is hard as $%^& to squeeze out, I used this last time I took off and reinstalled my sump cover:

Amazon.com: Reinz 703141410 Engine Sealing Compound: Automotive

It is what Pedro includes in his 2 QT Deep sump kit. Very easy to apply, much easier than the Loctite.

I have about 1000 miles and 3 track days since the install, no leaks so far... :)

I would replace the sump plate with a good used one & not do any racing. I have one I could sell you, but it may not get there til after Christmas. Permatex grey ultra seal works great for the sump plate only. The metal doesn't look bad. I would reassemble & check the new oil filter every 100 miles til 3,000 miles, then change & get a oil sample analyzed.

You should also get the cam timing deviation tested A.S.A.P. If the vario-cam solenoid chain wear pads have never been replaced, they should be done A.S.A.P. that's the source of most of the plastic chunks!

And I have had my sump plate off twice and it was not cracked like that at all.

I believe it is aluminum so I don't think it would cause any magnetic debris.

A new cover is fairly expensive I believe ($175? or some ridiculous amount), maybe you can get one from Woody or someone parting out a Boxster with a blown motor.

The FVD pan is *very* nice and sharp, also Mantis includes a bottom piece if you go mantis.

If you want to upgrade the baffle I have an EBS stainless X-51 baffle (for $100) I removed when I went to a 2 QT deep sump. The baffle worked well but as I am improving and moving to r-comps I wanted to have more protection (and I got a killer deal on the LN 2 QT deep sump that includes a version of that same baffle or else I would have kept it)

Steve, I would like to buy your spare EBS baffle. PM sent.

The color of those plastic bits is wrong for the variocam chain ramps, at least for my engine. There are 6 large ramps of blackish plastic and four small ramps that are much lighter color for the variocam.

That bashed sump plate is sad. If there isn't visible damage on the outside then it is likely, as someone pointed out above, from someone jacking the car up by the sump.

I had just a bit more metal in my oil than you're finding, and my pan was clean. I really wanted to click my heels together and do an oil change. Pulled my IMS bearing and it was just starting to flake. I went the rest of the way in and found my main bearings were totally shot.

The sump plate is made of aluminium. This can be welded. But you need somebody that can weld aluminium and has experience with aluminium alloys.

As flaps10 mentioned, the chain ramps at the vario cam are kind of dark brown when older. New ones are a kind of pale ebony. Hard to says from the photos which plastic debree that is. Looks like black?

Regards from Germany
Markus

Viper, no need to worry about your sump plate. The "cracks" you see are ridges in the die casting due to surface cracks in the die itself caused by thermal stress over time. This is normal and very common, plus there is no stress in the sump plate that would cause these to become an issue!

I did have both black chips (in the earlier pics) and some dark brown ones that were in the sump. I was planning on using permatex ultra black to put the sump plate back on, would anyone think thats a bad idea? It looks like it should work pretty good.

Steve, Thanks for the offer on the baffle but I will pass on that. I don't want to put money into that if I need to purchase other things. For example, I want to check cam deviations and I was going to spring for the duremetric enthusiast package, but I dont have a computer with windows on it. So now I need to buy a computer too? aghh.

I wouldn't get this sump plate welded. Its not cheap but its cheap enough to not fight with getting it welded. I will try to source a used one but if I can't, then I might just reuse this one. It didn't leak and I'll probably pull it off again in a few months so maybe replace it then?

I was planning to remove the transmission again to chase a possible rms leak so I'll pull the ims cover and take a peak at the bearing while I'm in there. If that turns out to be horrible, then I'll pul the engine and start digging. For now, I'm thinking put it back together and run it. Check cam deviations, and then go from there. I have seen threads about pulling cam covers with the engine in the car being very difficult. Does anyone know if its easier to do with the transmission out?

I just PM'ed you about an sump plate I have in my pile of stuff I can't throw away from an '01 2.7L that had a busted rod poking out of a hole in the case.
Different part number, but looks the same to me. Let me know if you want it and check with me if you need any other odd bits of a destroyed engine.

Dude I thought you were going to JB Weld that hole up and go with the 5 cylinder option.

Ah yes, the plan was to JB weld it and sell it on eBay as 'rebuilt'. :D

Viper, Here are the pics straight out of my plastic tub-of-M96. I'll give it a quick scrub before mailing:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450296553.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450296573.jpg

The scrape on the bottom:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450296705.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450296744.jpg

The other side of the scraped part - no internal damage.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1450296849.jpg

Thanks f350!

Flaps, when you had this problem, was there about the same amount of metal that I am finding? Also, just curious, do you think this much metal will set off the alarm on the ims guardian? I don't have one but I am trying to find one now. I really don't want to pull the motor if I don't have to but if it comes down to it, I will definitely be following your footsteps in your rebuild thread!

I had this
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...psc8dfaa6d.jpg

and this
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...ps62c5abf4.jpg

So I pulled the IMSB, with the engine in the car (transmission out). Found this:
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9f0c62b9.jpg

I didn't want to take my engine out either.

These are my old main bearings.
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...psc49bff88.jpg

Picture this: You and your significant other are looking forward to a nice long weekend. You're throwing an overnight bag in the Porsche, top down and taking off to where ever the road takes you.

Do you really want to spend the entire time worried that your engine is still making metal?

Who needs that kind of pressure and performance anxiety...?

That looks a lot worse than where I am at. I think if I had that much going on, then I would pull the engine. My plan now is to put another sump plate back on (one with no cracks), installing an ims guardian (just ordered one), and put it back together. I want to run the car to obtain cam deviation values and I want to do the oil cap test to see if I have a potentially failing aos. After I get this done, I will be removing the tranny to get to the oil leak that I have, and while I am in there I will see what the ims bearing looks like. If I end up removing the bearing, I will put a new one back in. I may also get the LN spin on oil filter and adapter but the ims guardian just took a chunk out of the short term budget.

I totally understand and can't argue with your logic at all.

Have you considered installing a oil filter magnet? Once you do your checks and put the unit back in service I'd spring for the magnets and see what metal you can attract. Also I agree with your decision to put a spin on adapter and filter although those are more difficult to cut apart to look for debris. Whatever you do keep us posted. Good luck and hope for the best.

The magnets I feel are a little overkill. With the spin on filter, I would imagine that should catch everything, magnets or no magnets. I am going to purchase an oil filter cutter as well. It is a little more work and a little more difficult cutting the spin on apart but its worth the trouble. I have a sump plate coming on monday, an ims guardian coming on wednesday, durametric shipping out on monday, and i'm lining up a spin on adapter. I'll keep up on here with the progress. It'll be a few weeks but eventually i'll get this back together.

Actually, while the spin on is about 30% finer in media pore diameter than the OEM filter, your engine still generates some very fine ferrous grit that is so small it can pass through even the spin on. With a FilterMag on the spin on housing, every drop of oil passes through a strong magnetic field with every pass, removing that fine ferrous grit. One of the most common "panic" phone calls we get is from people that just installed the spin on and FilterMag, and find more black debris clinging to the side walls of the spin on housing than they expected to see. Nothing unusual, just the magnet cleaning the crap out of your oiling system; subsequent filter changes tend to show a significant reduction in this fine black debris.

Being that the very fine grit is passing through the spin on filter, since it's so fine, will it really hurt anything? I would agree that if it can be removed, then it's probably a good idea to do so but bottom line, is it doing any harm not removing it?

Any grit passing through your engine equals wear. Since you have already identified metal in your oil a small investment in a filter magnet makes perfect sense. Personally, I'd rather have a device to capture the culprit than a system that tells me it's there. Money better spent. JMHO.