Crying Engine

[PaulDash]

Went to my mechanic today to fix a flopping undercarriage cover that I cracked. When the car was on the hydraulic lift, we noticed something a tad more major. The mechanic said "your cylinder heads are crying tears".

Basically, I have a leak on both sides.

What is a fair price to get that repaired? I take it it'll be more than just putting in new head gaskets. I got a quote for all gaskets & seals plus labor at $3000.

How long should the job take? Mechanic claims 10 days including removal of engine, gasket replacement, reassembly, changing all fluids, letting them settle, refilling, testing.

What else is worth doing with the engine out? Mechanic said clutch.

What other questions should I be asking?

Your help is, as always, much appreciated.

[Steve Tinker]

According to the experts (Flat 6 / JFPinPA), M96 engine cylinder head gaskets rarely - if ever - fail and if they did, they wouldn't usually weep oil externally, you would have intermix problems.

More plausible would be your cambox(s) may need re-sealing (can be done with engine in car but easier with it out) or if pre 2003 car the spark plug tube O rings have hardened and are leaking - an easy job that can be done in a couple of hours and less than $100 in parts.

First off I would clean the areas with degreaser and check for the source of the leakage yourself after a couple of hundred km.
I would also get a second opinion from a reputable Porsche shop.....

[Heiko]

"What else is worth doing with the engine out? Mechanic said clutch."

If you trust your mechanic ask him for his honest opinion once he finished the tear down... and see what it all looks like.

If it has to come out - Off the top of my head its hard to say what it may need (what have you had done to the engine so far, what's the mileage?)... I'm thinking any wear item or maintenance items such as IMSB, RMS, Cam chains, tensioners, chain guides, sparkplug tubes, water pump (good time to do it since coolant is going to get flushed anyhow).... those are just some...

[seningen]

I'm almost 100% sure that is not a head gasket -- you would have other issues and like Steve said -- it just donsn't happen.

I'll guess you have leaky spark plug tubes. Might be a little PITA job, but it is little.
Down side is that it is probably making a mess, might rot a coil pak -- but I doubt it.

Like Steve says, have you (or another shop) clean up that area with some degreaser
and then look to see where the problem is in a couple hundred miles.

There is dye you can put in your oil to search for leaks with a black light -- I've never done it -- and I don't know if it has any side effects. But you might investigate that route as well.

good luck,

Mike

Originally Posted by PaulDash

Went to my mechanic today to fix a flopping undercarriage cover that I cracked. When the car was on the hydraulic lift, we noticed something a tad more major. The mechanic said "your cylinder heads are crying tears".

Basically, I have a leak on both sides.

What is a fair price to get that repaired? I take it it'll be more than just putting in new head gaskets. I got a quote for all gaskets & seals plus labor at $3000.

How long should the job take? Mechanic claims 10 days including removal of engine, gasket replacement, reassembly, changing all fluids, letting them settle, refilling, testing.

What else is worth doing with the engine out? Mechanic said clutch.

What other questions should I be asking?

Your help is, as always, much appreciated.

[The Radium King]

search. this is a common topic with lots of info here. the spark plugs pass through the cam covers to get to the cyl heads. Porsche used plastic tubes for this that routinely crack and leak oil (or the o-rings that seal the plastic tubes can flatten and pass oil). this may be the source of the leak you are seeing.

also, cam covers can start to weep oil. prior to pulling them off and resealing, try just retorquing all the bolts (in the appropriate order as per the maint manual).

I doubt the price you were quoted was to remove the actual heads. probably just cam covers. if you do go this route then chain tensioner pads should be replaced. a good Porsche mechanic should know this. get a second opinion.

[PaulDash]

Thanks guys! Glad I asked.

That does make me think that maybe I shouldn't be jumping the gun and letting him dismantle the engine without really confirming what's wrong.

To answer your questions:
- It's going to be hard to get a second opinion as he's the only P-car specialist in the region. Next closest would be the official dealer.
- The price is not too low (I'm thinking too high) for pulling out the motor and taking off the heads. The hourly rate they have here is about $40, mind you.
- The car is a MY'99 with 160k KM on it. Received no history from the previous owner so I'm assuming that no work has been done on the car. Since getting it in September, I've replaced the clutch slave cylinder, power steering fluid, all filters, engine oil, coolant, spark plugs (without the o-rings or tubes), one of the O2 sensors, and accessory belt.
- Mike, what "other issues" would I see? It's not a major leak and I have been smelling burnt oil if I rev high and drive it hard.

If I understand you all correctly, this isn't something that I have to get done this very minute and (doing regular oil level checks) I can clean the engine, drive it some, then have a look at it...

[golonaus]

jezeli to sa spark plug tubes, to jest to 2h naprawa
bardzo prosto sie to robi
o i jeszcze jedno, zmien tego mechanika
powodzenia

[runjmc2]

Even if that were the correct diagnosis and estimate, which seems very doubtful, I would never invest $3000 in an engine of that age/mileage. I would put that $3000 in my "what's next" fund...

[BYprodriver]

If this guy dosen't have experience working on Boxsters or 1999 & newer 911s you will be better off going to a authorized Porsche dealer. These cars have little to do with older aircooled Porsches. There's no need to remove the engine to fix a oil leak.

[thstone]

Make 100% SURE that it is the head gasket that is leaking before you do anything.

My Boxster was diagnosed by an indy and a dealer as having leaking cam covers. Turns out it was simply the spark plug tubes.

My 996 was diagnosed by indy as having leaking cam covers. Turns out they were correct and it cost $1100 to remove and reseal.

[PaulDash]

Originally Posted by runjmc2

Even if that were the correct diagnosis and estimate, which seems very doubtful, I would never invest $3000 in an engine of that age/mileage. I would put that $3000 in my "what's next" fund...

Err... meaning ditch the car and buy another one for $15000?

Or sell this one as is? I couldn't lie about its condition.

[PaulDash]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

If this guy dosen't have experience working on Boxsters or 1999 & newer 911s you will be better off going to a authorized Porsche dealer. These cars have little to do with older aircooled Porsches. There's no need to remove the engine to fix a oil leak.

Really? So how do you fix an oil leak if it's the head gasket without taking out the engine?

This guy does all sorts of Porsches in southern Poland, though his reputation is doubtful. His uncle, who owned the business a few years back, tried to cheat me into doing some major repairs on my 944 by saying my cylinder block was cracked!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by PaulDash

Thanks guys! Glad I asked.

That does make me think that maybe I shouldn't be jumping the gun and letting him dismantle the engine without really confirming what's wrong.

To answer your questions:
- It's going to be hard to get a second opinion as he's the only P-car specialist in the region. Next closest would be the official dealer.
- The price is not too low (I'm thinking too high) for pulling out the motor and taking off the heads. The hourly rate they have here is about $40, mind you.
- The car is a MY'99 with 160k KM on it. Received no history from the previous owner so I'm assuming that no work has been done on the car. Since getting it in September, I've replaced the clutch slave cylinder, power steering fluid, all filters, engine oil, coolant, spark plugs (without the o-rings or tubes), one of the O2 sensors, and accessory belt.
- Mike, what "other issues" would I see? It's not a major leak and I have been smelling burnt oil if I rev high and drive it hard.

If I understand you all correctly, this isn't something that I have to get done this very minute and (doing regular oil level checks) I can clean the engine, drive it some, then have a look at it...

As my name has been mentioned, I guess it is time to chime in on the subject.

M96/97 engines never blow head gaskets, it just does not happen. So when someone leads off by telling you that yours need replacing, my first inclination would be to take the car somewhere else.

That said, these engines do sometimes have oil leaks from the cam cover areas, but these leaks can easily be fixed by someone with the correct knowledge and experience. On your car, I would first suspect spark plug tubes, then the cam cover itself. Neither of these are the end of the world, resealing the plug tubes is only slightly more complicated than changing the spark plugs. The cam covers are a bit more involved because they require a fixture to retain the cams in place while removing the cover to clear and reseal it. But it is still not a monster project.

One thing to consider is unless you can clearly see the source of the leak(s),cleaning the engine off and then waiting a bit to see where the leak (s) develop would be a safe pathway. Then you would know exactly what you are into.

[seningen]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

As my name has been mentioned, I guess it is time to chime in on the subject.

M96/97 engines never blow head gaskets, it just does not happen. So when someone leads off by telling you that yours need replacing, my first inclination would be to take the car somewhere else.

That said, these engines do sometimes have oil leaks from the cam cover areas, but these leaks can easily be fixed by someone with the correct knowledge and experience. On your car, I would first suspect spark plug tubes, then the cam cover itself. Neither of these are the end of the world, resealing the plug tubes is only slightly more complicated than changing the spark plugs. The cam covers are a bit more involved because they require a fixture to retain the cams in place while removing the cover to clear and reseal it. But it is still not a monster project.

One thing to consider is unless you can clearly see the source of the leak(s),cleaning the engine off and then waiting a bit to see where the leak (s) develop would be a safe pathway. Then you would know exactly what you are into.

+1

Mike

[runjmc2]

Originally Posted by PaulDash

Err... meaning ditch the car and buy another one for $15000?

Or sell this one as is? I couldn't lie about its condition.

"What's next" is relative. Sorry for not being more clear. The fact is the engine is getting close to the end of its expected life. The stories of 200k, 250k or even 300k+ miles are great but more often than not sinking large sums of money into an engine of this age is a poor investment decision. It is my opinion that money would be better spent on a longer term solution (low milage used, quality rebuild, etc.) or another vehicle.

As others have stated, hoping it's as simple as the spark plug tubes….which is very likely…and you don't have to make the hard decision of how to spend $3K+

[Steve Tinker]

In thread #6, the OP says his car has done 160,000km (100,000 miles) which is hardly "close to the end of its expected life" especially if it has been well maintained.
There are many people on this forum that has more than 100k on their cars.

[kk2002s]

I suspect that if you are taking your car in to have a mechanic re secure some floppy under panels, then you are not comfortable doing the engine repairs.
If this is the first time you have noticed oil leakage, haven't noticed drips where you park, then you must not be leaking much.

Are you checking dip stick level regularly?

If the car is not losing a lot then cleaning it up and monitoring could save you thousands

Correct - spending $3k to save $15k is probably worth it
BUT spending $3k to fix a $100-$500 DIY job is _ _ _ _ ? fill in your own words

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by PaulDash

Really? So how do you fix an oil leak if it's the head gasket without taking out the engine?

This guy does all sorts of Porsches in southern Poland, though his reputation is doubtful. His uncle, who owned the business a few years back, tried to cheat me into doing some major repairs on my 944 by saying my cylinder block was cracked!

Like JFP said head gaskets don't fail.

I bet this guy was trained by his uncle!

[PaulDash]

Just to close up an old thread, it wasn't the head gasket.

I went to a different mechanic and he fixed the oil pump and a clutch slave cylinder that those other guys didn't diagnose.

For future reference to all the owners in Poland: message me for recommendations on a good mechanic