Seller won't PPI
 

I'm in the market for an inexpensive fun car to drive- my research has pointed me towards a circa 2003 Boxster S. I've lurked here in the forums for a bit and read the "Thinking of buying a Boxster ? - MUST READ !" -- thanks for all the great info, super helpful.

I've test drove this car: 2003 Porsche Boxster S Everything seems cool, the wheels have some scratching where they've rubbed against a curb and there's a small dent on the rear trunk where some cargo was too big to fit. This is a 2-owner car, he has all the service records, including a recent inspection from a local (Modesto, CA based) import mechanic shop: Kruse-Lucas Imports.

I think the price is fair, but he's not overly motivated to sell (so he represents) and isn't willing to take the car to a Porsche dealership for a PPI (1.5 hour drive each way) and I get that. He says the car is excellent, he know's it and doesn't feel the need to overly convince someone else, that the local inspection should be good enough. I haven't seen that inspection yet but I'm supposed to get a copy tomorrow.

Otherwise there's this car: 2004 Porsche Boxster S but that has a new engine installed. Is that good or bad? From what I understand this new engine would have a different setup that would not allow the IMS bearing to be replaced with the LN retro without engine removal, correct? Haven't contacted this owner yet. He's also 200+ miles away, the first guy is around the corner.

Looking for any direction or words of wisdom- hard to think rationally when I just want to get it and drive! (:

Thanks in advance,
Scott

Both cars look well cared for. Will the seller of the first one allow you to take it to the local shop that has been working on it? You don't have to have the PPI done at a Porsche dealer, in fact, many dealers won't do a PPI. An independent shop that has experience with Porsches is ideal. The fact that the 60K mile service was done is good news. I would want the dent fixed just because it would bother me.

The second car also looks nice. As far as the engine goes, you can have the DOF system installed and enjoy, at least that is my understanding of those engines. The fact that it is an 18,000 mile engine is a positive in my book.

I doubt you can go wrong with either car, both look to have documented service history, and enthusiast owned. Even with a PPI, there is no guarantee. Good luck and welcome to the forum!

Exactly. I can also understand some sellers baulking at certain aspects of "in-depth" PPI's. When I sold my car I drew the line at pulling coil packs / plugs or tearing into the engine in any way, if damage occurred (cracked plastic, stripped plug holes, after effect leaks, etc.) it very easily would of been on my nickel to repair what the "experts" broke, no thanks.

Thank you gentlemen for your feedback - I really appreciate it! :)

I will add that I purchased my 2001 S in Atlanta over the phone after seeing an AutoTrader ad from a Cadillac dealer, I live in Texas:eek: After looking at the CARFAX report, I noticed it had been serviced at the same shop for 7 years. I gave them a call, and they knew the car well, they said the owner was meticulous and the car wanted for nothing, they wouldn't hesitate to buy. I also knew that a Cadillac dealer wouldn't risk their reputation on a then 11 year old car unless it was perfect. They took it on a trade when the owner traded it for a 2005 Boxster that they had on the lot. With all of that information, I was comfortable with the purchase even though I did not get a PPI. So far, knock on wood, it has been an awesome car:D

It still gives me a grin every time I drive it(I have had it a year and a half now). Today, headed to the doctor with a sinus infection, I still had to have the top down since it was sunny and 70 degrees! A Turbo S was in front of me as we took the on ramp, loved hearing the output of his exhaust and mine, sweet:) Pick one and enjoy:cheers:

Ok, so on the topic of sinus infections check out the saline washes like the Neti Pot; on the topic of exhaust- so I'm not much of a car guy.. I think they're cool and all, just haven't been around sports cars in the flesh before. I owned a 82 Corvette (automatic, it was a dog) when I was 17, but that was it. Now 15 years later the first time I ever physically touched a Porsche was test driving that 2003 boxster s listed above a few days ago. While shifting into second I revved the engine-:eek: I had no idea the exhaust sounded SO cool! I mean, maybe all you guys are just used to it or something, but it caught me by surprise- it literally growled at me. Very cool memory! (:

I use the Neil-Med saline wash which has helped significantly but I still get one infection a year, almost always this time of year:rolleyes:

On the exhaust, yes, it is intoxicating and I don't ever get tired of it! Go under an overpass or a tunnel and give it some gas, if you don't grin, you are not alive! My wife never fails to grin when she hears it echo off the concrete, great stuff! Get an after market performance exhaust and it gets even better. I have the Top Speed exhaust with secondary cat delete pipes which gives more growl, less weight and bump in HP. A worthwhile upgrade.

http://986forum.com/forums/diy-project-guides/41683-top-speeds-cat-back-system-installation.html

Perhaps the seller would allow a PPI at a local independent shop.

The point of a PPI is so that you have someone not emotionally involved to give you an unbiased report of the general condition of the car. No, its not perfect but its definitely worth it due to the potentially high cost of Porsche repairs.

Very few people sell a car right after they spent $2,000 fixing every known problem - most will do the major stuff but many minor issues almost always remain unresolved. Like maybe a seeping water pump that will soon start to leak/drip or an AOS that fails the oil cap suction test or a slightly grinding wheel bearing or a leaky cam cover gasket - things that a qualified Porsche mechanic will catch that the average buyer may not.

So, do you want to know what needs to be fixed before or after you buy it?

BruceH-
Sweet thread on the exhaust, looks like the mufflers + 2nd cat delete pipes is the way to go.. It'd probably be good to do this after some months of owning the car so I could further appreciate the before/after difference.

thom4782-
Yes, a PPI was already done just over a month ago at the local shop. I guess I had it in my mind that only the Porsche dealership could check for PIWIS/DME to see if there had been previous engine abuse. Am I right in that assumption or not?

thstone-
Thanks for the input. During the recent 60k maintenance there were some issues fixed like rebuilt bosch alternator, coolant tank leak, new battery, etc. From what I can see the rear tires have about 40% life remaining, fronts 75% (non-matching), and in a report the clutch was estimated at 40% wear.

As for what I'd do, based upon my reading here, I think when the clutch needs to be replaced I'd put in a SACHS and add the LN IMS retrofit for a softer pillow at night while we're there.

Thanks again everyone for the responses- looking forward to joining the club soon! :)

It depends. Some local shops have reasonably shophisticated diagnostic computers, e.g. Autologic or Durametric, that can provide a lot of specific information. I'll confess I don't know what the PIWIS can provide in addition, but I wouldn't let that stop me from buying what seem like a great car otherwise.

I'm a bit late to the dance on this thread, but when it comes to PPI's, I'd walk away from anyone that does not want to do one, or starts placing boundaries (who can do it, what can be looked at, who gets to see the data first, etc.) on getting one done. The object of the PPI is to determine the car's current condition and anything that would be needed after purchase. Armed with a dispassionate view of the car's condition, the buyer can enter into serious negotiations on the final price. If the car is as good as the seller says, they have nothing to be concerned about, but having done more than a few of these, you would be amazed at what someone calls "pristine".............

While I usually wholeheartedly agree with you JFP, based on one past experience I believe that the seller owes it to himself to be prudent about where and who starts digging into your car.

If it is an agreed upon shop with a decent reputation that's one thing, if not that is another. Where I live if you go to the online yellow pages (as of a few years ago in this case) and type in "Porsche Repair Shop" then the city where I'm at, that is how one prior prospective buyer decided on who was to perform a PPI. Got there and witnessed the shop "techs" spend 30 minutes trying to figure out how to change a front light bulb on a 996, I am not embellishing one iota. I walked out and drove home.

Have heard of a few other "issues" along these lines, never from a reputable shop though. I will continue to place REASONABLE boundaries to protect myself if I sell............:cheers:

related question: How would a mechanic estimate remaining clutch life without dropping the transmission?

Probably by how far from the floor the pedal travels before it engages.

I know that I'm beating a dead horse here, but...

I agree with the seller. I would never, not for one minute, consider making a 3 hour round trip plus inspection time for someone who might buy my car. Local shops only. There are more buyers than sellers...

JM2C ;)

If I was the seller I'd agree to a PPI in this case, but I'd want the prospective buyer to give me $200-$300 up front for my time and inconvenience. If the buyer buys the car, the $200-$300 comes off the purchase price. If not, it goes into the sellers pocket.

Purchased mine without a PPI. Grew up in auto machine shop/garage my father owned so this gives me some insight on what to look and listen for, plus, I've been restoring cars for many years. If the car has been maintained locally, just check with them. I know of no shops that will remove and engine and transmission to do a thorough check for a couple of hundred bucks. This goes again, with the cars mileage, maintenance history and owner usage of the car. The shop doing the PPI will use their experience as to give the vehicle a thorough once over of condition and what will need to be done after purchase. Any used car your buying you are taking a chance...you just never know. Me, I look at the inside and outside, type of tires, gas he buys, even the wax he uses. If he cares, it shows...then go for drive. Then decide and negotiate. Know what this particular model sells for which gives you a little wiggle room, oh, cash in hand speaks real loud on your seriousness to buy. Good luck.

"Reasonableness" is the key on this topic, and as with most things, what is reasonable to one is sometimes questionable to another. In the case of a three hour drive, that lacks reasonableness; but at the same time having the seller tell you that the car can only be PPI'ed at the shop of his choice, or only certain things can be looked at, and worst of all, being told that only the seller can see the results of the check is just plain nonsense and completely unreasonable. And yes, I have seen these exact boundaries placed on more than one car.

If you can't come to a "reasonable" agreement on what the PPI will be, time to walk away..........

It looks as if we are on the same page after all. I took your prior post "walk away if the seller places any boundaries" as to suggest the seller forfeit any say in what the prospective buyer wants / where to check the car out, for me that would be out of the question.

Side note; the PPI that was ultimately performed on my car was by a local shop who builds 911's for Lemans and Grand Am teams, and their cars regularly win. Sgt Brad was the buyer of the car and he paid for the PPI. Brad contacted me a few weeks after the sale and said the shop came back after him for an additional $500 for repairs that they had "an invoice dispute / discrepancy" over. I was a bit surprised at the whole scenario but got involved and talked to the shop since they were local and it was eventually dropped.

My guess is that you see the other side of the spectrum being a shop owner, it's just that my limited exposure to P-Car PPI's as a seller has been a bit sour.

P.S. Knowing now what I wish I knew then there a 2 or 3 shops within an hour from my location that I'd completely trust. :)

I completely understand your position; but having personally done a PPI on what was being sold as a one owner, very low mileage, and absolutely immaculate 996 C4s, only to find they had popped a used 2.7L Boxster engine into it to sell it, I can tell you not everything is as it seems...............

I've always been torn on the issue of a PPI. As as buyer, I would more than expect the opportunity to have one conducted. Yet, as a seller, I would never avail the D-mobile to one. Not for reasons that it wouldn't pass. To the contrary, it would pass with more than flying colors. But, similar to Coreseller, I wouldn't want anyone probing around and pulling things apart for fear that something might get damaged or screwed up in the process. I guess to some extent that makes me a hypocrite. But, some vehicles have their own boundaries.

I would think the most invasive check would be to drop the oil pan. I don't think I would request going any further than that. Or is that too invasive? I really think you need to check for metal or plastic debris with these cars.

I paid $260 for a PPI from my closest Porsche dealer for an '02 BS I was considering. I was given a list of items they said were required that totaled over $4K worth of work. I then discovered the Independent who had serviced the car for over 3 years and was informed that much of the work 'required' by the dealer had been done ONE MONTH EARLIER. I then spoke to a different, closer, Independent who debunked another $2K of worth of Dealer quotes. Ugh.

So...I just splurged and spent $200 (two hundred) at Pelican for the balance of the "$4K" required.

I have to say...unless you are REALLY comfortable with your Dealer, stick with an Independant that has great references. I walk up to Porsche owners and just ask, "Who takes care of your car?". Worth it.

We always pull the oil filter, both to look for debris and to take and oil sample for testing. If the filter is full of crap, you don't need to look further.

Most guys on here are in a state of anxiety over the IMS issue...which again I think is overstated. But, hey, lets look at another option. Instead of paying $4-5k for this upgrade replacement bearing. Go on ebay and by a replacement engine. I can get one a 3.2 for my car with very good mileage (50k) for about $2k. Now I prep this engine and make sure its sound. Maybe putting in a new bearing, seals, etc. and having it ready to go. Lets say I never have to use it and I sell my Boxster and get something else. Now that engine setting in my garage can now be redeemed for cash...like having a savings account. It was there when I needed but never used it. Get it.:D

Not a bad plan but I sure haven't seen a used 3.2 for $2K. Not saying you can't find one but most I see are more in the $4-6K range.

They are there and anything ebay for sale is negotiable, evenly they will sell at a reasonable price. Just depends on your budget.

as a general economic rule, you are unlikely to get a good price (below fair market) from an unmotivated seller. And when it comes to mass produced water-cooled Porsches, there's no reason to deal with an unmotivated seller.

If we were talking about a well-kept 993 or some other small production Porsche, then you are playing in a seller's market. That's not the case with any water-cooled Carrera, Boxster/Cayman, Cayenne or Pana --unless it comes with a limited production engine like the RS 4.0. There are a crap ton of these mass production engine cars every day on Autotrader if you have to have it right now, or on the enthusiast forum classifies if you want a good deal instead. No need to jump through hoops this guy isn't selling anything you won't find somewhere else.

+1 on this.
Plus I like to deal with a private seller who is accommodating and has a decent personality. I have walked away from a seller who acts like Darth Vader. The only time it gets edgy for me is when I am negotiating the price. If I was intent on selling a car I would entertain the idea of letting the indy open up the oil filter as long as a new one was put back in at the prospective buyer's expense. If I was selling a car I would hide nothing. Is this seller hiding something.....lots of Boxsters out there even if you have to do some travelling. Don't buy the first one you see.

yep. If I sense through an ad or over the phone that the guy is a ball-buster, I know he's going to fight me over every nickel. Next. Whenver possible I gravitate towards guys who are more concerned with losing time than money. 9 times out of 10 a fair offer will be accepted. And I know these types have to deal with an epic number of numb skulls making hail Mary low ball offers, which is a waste of the seller's time.

Just as an update - I contacted the owner of the 2004 today, totally a car enthusiast. He started his car hobby with a Pantera, now owns a Viper and recently purchased 911. He had the IMS failure at 30k, all work done by dealership under warranty and replaced clutch at the same time. I contacted the local Porsche dealership to schedule a PPI, waiting for a call back. The owner knew the service manager's name and number, and they've serviced this car in the past. Feeling like this 04 has been cared for just a bit more than the 03. Thanks again everyone for your input!

Oh, as a side note- do IMS failures ever happen again on the Porsche replaced engines? I know the upgraded bearing is larger.. Which is better the LN or revised Porsche?

As an update to the update, called Don Sucich from the Porsche dealership in Woodland Hills, CA. He said none of the Porsche dealerships do PPI anymore because of the legal problems involved. :(

No big loss. A PPI and license plate frame would be all I would ever use an dealership for on an out-of-warranty Porsche. Strike that, I once picked up a MAHLE oil filter there after running out of spares. But Ray Catena Porsche has by far the best complimentary sandwich and doughnut buffett spread in the business! :)

In alternative you could have the current owner simply ask the dealership to perform a diagnostic of needed maintenance. I had the dealer do this when I was inching closer towards major maintenance. They checked everything -- down to which coil packs need replacing. The service manager handed me the estimate that equalled the car's market value. LOL. He didn't even try to sell me on a single item on his estimate as he could tell I would be taking the car directly to an independent Porsche specialist and saving errr 60% right off the bat. However, a diagnostic would not really dig into things like leak down/compression testing. Point is go with an indy shop with a good reputation to check the car thoroughly.

Scott, I live in Oakdale as well, small world huh?

Take it to Eurotrends in Ceres, they are good guys and will shoot straight with you. Also, they will be good guys to get to know for any future needs or services you will have.

Good Luck

Another Oakdale guy cool! The 2004 Boxster is getting PPI tomorrow at TRE Motorsports. Getting excited! :cool:

A word about the PPI. Before I underwent my major maintenance at 70K miles, my mechanic gave it a once over an commented how good everything looked underneath (that didn't require taking things apart). About six months later a slew of things let go without warning. I recall a bill around that time for about $5K...again at independent shop rates, I can only imagine what that would have cost at the dealer.

Point is no matter what the PPI reveals, you must factor in known Boxster/Carrera weak spots, things that will typically go by a certain mileage that aren't part of the service schedule and simple random failures that happen to any car. Even if you're not spending ~$1,000 - $1,300 a year on these things, they are accruing just the same and will need to be done later or sooner depending on how much you decide to start driving the car.

Then if they don't do a PPI, then how do they Certify a pre-owned porsche.:eek:

BUZZKILL!:ah:

you will have many of those after 70K miles.

My advice: in after 20K out by 50K. Let the first owner take the hit on depreciation, let the next guy pay for major maintenance.