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It is ironic you referenced that video
as the black CGT was owned by a somewhat notorious fellow (VR Alexander) that frequently drove and filmed his CGT around the LA area. He was killed while driving up pikes peak I believe a few years ago (911 turbo I think). Driving the cars sanely like a normal car especially in traffic and around the city should not present any more issues than any other car. A viper, t-bucket roadster, cobra kit car, etc. can get you in just as much trouble as any CGT when driven irresponsibly. It is as much the mentality of the driver that is at fault in these situations as anything.
On an irrelevant side note...VR Alexanders CGT had straight pipes and/or an aftermarket exhaust and while louder, does not sound nearly as good as the stock exhaust system. |
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Couldn't agree more on the V-10 exhaust, the black CGT's (VR's) note was obnoxious. The downshift and subsequent howl at 7:27 does indeed sound about as wicked as it gets. Regarding the speed of the CGT, we'll all find that out eventually. |
The guy was polarizing to say the least...
I am sure he knew a fair amount about porsches. I do remember a video where he was dissing the boxster treating it like it was not a real porsche due to the lower power output and such...I guess his knowledge of porsche did not include the 356, 914, etc. and only cars like the CGT and 959.
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Good discussion. Here is my speculation: out for a demo ride, pro race driver shows off a bit and loses control at high speed (>100mph). Car crashes into fixed objects. Occupants crash into car interior and are dazed/unconscious. Fire starts. We know how it ends.
Its a simple result of using poor judgment at the wrong moment in the wrong place. We've all done something similar (in terms of poor judgment) and got away with it. This is the 1 in a 1,000,000 who didn't. |
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That's an interesting word choice. More interesting is that any of the car's data-logging is apparently fire and explosion-proof. And instead of hiring an independent expert to examine the data, the police went to the party that will most likely be the defendant in a civil suit to analyze said data? Sounds to me like Porsche is setting up a defense for the family's civil suit with this 100+ mph business. If Rodas was a competitive driver, I don't see how he couldn't have scrubbed some speed, at speeds fairly common for a racer and on a stretch of street that was far from ideal for 100+ mph racing. Either way they were certainly going over 45 mph so Porsche has a leg up from the start. Let's wait until the family's indepdenpent expert goes through these same documents/data, if Porsche hasn't cleverly settled before then (long after the 100+ mph storyline becomes accepted fact). |
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Paul Walker's driver. 993 owner out in the canyon. Same issue.
Take it to the race track folks! |
I suspect that investigators are required to use Porsche's proprietary software to analyze the data. I also suspect that Porsche wouldn't 'fudge' the readings, law suit or not - those responsible could end up charged with obstructing justice, or the equivalent under California law.
What's the lesson here? Drive at speeds in excess of 100 mph on public streets where there are curbs and light posts and trees directly off the travelled portion of the roadway and there is absolutely no margin for error! Brad |
"What's the lesson here? Drive at speeds in excess of 100 mph on public streets where there are curbs and light posts and trees directly off the travelled portion of the roadway and there is absolutely no margin for error!"
... driving at speeds in excess of 100 mph in a PARKING LOT provides even less room for error! |
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However, if there was any "approximating" needed for the retrieved data I would very suspicious. In the Ben Keaton and Corey Rudl case Porsche's own engineers contradicted each other on the stand when asked why stability management was left out of the CGT. One admitted straight up that safety was tossed in favor of sales. If no interpreation/approximation of the data was needed, then the police could easily have given the telemetry to an independent third party (with no interest in concluding if the speed was above or under 100+mph) under a strict confidentiality agreement with Porsche and the police. And even if some guess work had to be done, the independent company could have been able to do this as well as that isn't a proprietary process. It's really head-scratching why the police would allow the party most likely to be the target of a civil suit to make this determination on the speed at impact. But it doesn't matter because if a civil suit is brought the attorneys of the family and the expert witness they hire are going to have a field day with this decision by the police. What's more interesting to me is that Porsche themselves did not hire a independent firm to recuse themselves from this pivotal fact point. I'm more curious as to how the electronics survived a fire that left the police resorting to dental records. That must be some seriously high temp plastic. |
Amazing how often it comes down to tires, especially when speeds get into 3 digits.
Back in my press vehicle test driving days, we had a Dodge SRT10 truck with Viper engine & 6-speed. Truck had a couple thousand miles & was perfect.(handling was amazing for the time 2003) Truck got scheduled to go to Jay Leno for some high speed testing. Chrysler sent a new set of oem 22" tires, Pirellis I think. I protested as much as I dared about installing full tread depth, unproven tires, hours before VIP delivery to the opposite side of LA. Knowing few shops knew how to balance 22" wheels without proper equipment designed for them I anticipated problems leading to delays. My idea had to yield to client ideas so we lucked out & got a decent balance job & lots of unsightly slabs of aftermarket lead. This all took place about a year after Autoweek rolled a preproduction Jeep Liberty during slalom testing. After this incident Chrysler mandated new OEM all-season tires for each Liberty test loan. |
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The #1 rule in the protection of intellectual property is not to disclose it in the first place. |
but wouldn't this fairly routine data collected from Porsches already be out there though? I'm no race engineer but I'm thinking privateers must need access to equally if not more in depth telemetry than what would be needed in a road car traveling under triple digits. Or do the privateers have to install third party data-logging hardware for every relevant element..braking, acceleration, g's, throttle, etc. without any access to the onboard stuff rom Porsche? I guess these would be a good question for BGB who raced without factory support.
At any rate if the data Porsche used is too complicated to show and far too proprietary, then that sounds like it wasn't a simple matter of seeing a printout that showed the speed at impact but actually involved some guesstimating by Porsche in order to arrive at the 100+ mph figure. |
I'm guessing Porsche wanted these facts to be revealed & properly translated into English layman's terms.
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So, what about Ferrari, Lamborgini, etc...they all fall into this high HP low car weight category and require an extremely experienced driver to stay out of trouble. Do we need to stop making all exotics? What about the guys hopping up the Nissans and Hondas, etc....It was an unfortunate accident.
I've responded to accidents at much slower speeds with fatalities. **************** happens sometimes. I don't understand why a whole bunch of Porsche owners think Porsche was irresponsible to make and sell this car? I'm quite sure motorcycle accidents are far more prevalent than exotic car accidents. I think people just start to think they are invincible and consequently, take risks that they can't control. Quote:
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^ no they can keep selling exotics all day long. But don't conflate a $200K Ferrari or Lamborghini specifically designed for road car use with a flat out racing car that was never intended to be a road car and only became a road car when Porsche was not allowed to race the CGT afterall. Worst of all, when the decision to sell a racing car as road was made, they ignored their own well researched conclusions about what could keep the driver alive or keep that novice driver from taking out a bunch of other motorists in a highly flamable configuration. A driver getting into one of these racing cars veiled as a road car isn't just risking his own life, he's putting others at risk as well.
That is to say I have no issue with a guy putting himself in a coffin because he overestimated his talent and skill. Easy come easy go. But what do you say to the family of the driver pinned in his $20K car and subsequently burned alive because the CGT driver lost control, plowed into him with his $300K car and they both become a fire ball within 60 seconds of the impact? ooops? Or maybe for the sake of everyone on the road that $300K car should have had some stability management or fire mitigation required for road car use. If you want to jump without these parachutes on the track that's entirely a different matter. |
Perfectlap, you say sorry for your loss - and sorry that they were driving the car at incredibly inappropriate speeds for that particular area. You also say that they should be thankful that they didn't also kill a pedestrian.
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Well, maybe it's those low standards that need to be addressed. That's really not Porsche's role though.
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As for the fire, again, that seems to be a very different matter. I don't think there's anyone on this or any Porsche forum that's going to think twice about getting into the passenger seat of that car knowing how quickly it became a roasted marshmallow in this particular tragedy. After watching thousands of hours of sports car races over the years I can hardly think of many crashes where the driver's car was a ball of fire so soon after an impact -- all at much higher rates of speed than this public street accident. The Dale Jr. incident at Sonoma in the Corvette comes to mind but really if this was a racing car for the road, it did very poorly as far as fire is concerned. |
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Here are the basics of automotive event data recorders; Event data recorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia And here is Toyota's official press release on the subject; Toyota Clarifies the Facts About Event Data Recorders | Corporate And here is a good Road & Track overview; Event Data Recorders - Road & Track Since the EDR only operates in an accident situation, it is not useful for racing data analysis. Instead, privateer's spend a lot of money on third party data collection and recording systems. Usually this means collecting some data from the ODBII or CANBUS on the car, having a GPS subsystem (position and speed and g's), and adding individual transducers for measuring things like braking, throttle, etc. These data logging systems can be quite expensive. |
You're comparing apples to oranges, race cars rarely have trees and poles to hit. I can't imagine engineering a car to make 100+ MPH impacts with a tree, on the driver's door, survivable.
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It's not the fault of Porsche or the car that some dip**************** hot shot drove too fast for city streets. Privilege? Can anyone here imagine driving ANY car 100+mph on that street? Are you going to tell me that 600 hp sent him from 35 to 100+ by accident? He was being reckless. Get over it. Porsche didn't make the highway safety standards, they just met them. |
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Yet after nearly a decade on this forum and others I can't think of one incident where a 986 charbroiled the occupants, let alone within 1 to 2 minutes after the impact.. And I'm not sure why you're conflating the issue of responsibility for the accident, with the merits or weakpoints of this car following a crash. They are two separate discussions. Whether a car spins out of control because of driver error or equipment failure, is not germaine to this second issue of how prone this car is to explosion and fire. |
CGT wheels are magnesium if I recall correctly. Interesting that they seemed unaffected by the crash or fire. All this talk about negligent vehicle design got me thinking about using magnesium for the wheels.
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Thinking of it, I am also extremely surprised that those wheels held up better than the carbon fiber :confused: |
Reading through all of the recent posts, I guess the question is:
Should high performance cars be held to a higher standard of safety? Should a car capable of extremenly high performance be required to withstand impacts at the likely higher speeds at which it will be driven? Is it time to stop pretending that no one is going to exceed 65mph on the street in these cars and actually set crash standards for 75mph or 100mph? |
^ for crash worthiness? I dont' think so. You take your chances with your own life. I would let the free market take car of that. A high income buyer is hopefully educated enough to buy the car he's most likely to walk out of in a 65-100 mph crash.
But when we're discussing fire? That's another matter as fire can engulf more than one car. These kinds of cars should absolutely have a higher level of fire-protection/mitigation. And some form of stability management if the risk of fire is determined to in fact be higher than a smaller engine car. I'm very skeptical that the impact killed both of these guys. Unless they had the terrible luck of both of them colliding directly in the path of one light pole... then at least one had surviveable injuries but the fire finished them both. The coroner indicated that there wasn't much soot in the trachea, but I'm sure the expert witness for the family will probably argue that this was likely due to the fire ball/explosion suffocating one or both guys before first responders could perform CPR to get them breathing again after the initial crash. |
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(not applicable in this case I know. But If I'd be the dept of Transport's top politician this is what I would slam those "public" Go-Fast machine owners with ;) |
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I think the 991 S is over 400 HP standard now. Ditto for the C7 I don't think you can realistically mandate skills for expensive cars in this country. There are simply too few buyers and even fewer who know what they're doing. My buddy bought one of the first Vipers, he'd just graduated med school and had zero training behind the wheel. At the time I was stunned that they would just slide the keys over to this nutter without a least a little autocross session in a lot somewhere. He ended barely driving the car, I suspect he feared it.:D |
One of the official reports I read said the car skided into the 1st pole/tree hitting the drivers door & killed the driver, spun around & hit next tree on passenger door leading to death of passenger.
Pre ABS & stability control Viper is the scariest new vehicle I have driven. Most uncomfortable too. Initial US mass delivery of the GT2 RS was conducted @ the former USMC airstrip were the PCA OC region AutoX. There a couple dozen buyers were paired with their GT2RS & the best instructors Porshe could bring for introduction of how to drive the fastest street car ever made by Porsche. |
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Also, I thought they initially determined that Walker's injuries at this second impact where life-threatening but he did not die instantly? However without oxgyen, on account of being trapped in a fireball, would definitely be quickly fatal. Roger Williamson all over again. |
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Fire issue aside, I wonder what Walter Rohrl knows when he states that the CGT is the only car within which he experienced fear while driving. When one imagines all of the ill- handling road, pre- production/ prototype, road race and rally cars that man has pushed to and beyond there limits, it really makes me wonder what would scare him.
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