'03 S - Two Mechanics say Yes & One says No - IMS
 

Yes, I know you are all sick of the IMS topic, but mine is in the 8-10% failure rate. If it were in the 1% category I wouldn't give it another thought.

I have an appointment to have the IMS bearing replaced in 2 weeks. Before I bought the car another mechanic suggested I have it replaced immediately. I just spoke with a third mechanic today who said he has replaced four dozen IMS bearings, and not a single bearing he replaced was bad.

He believes there are warning signs. He also believes in checking the oil filter every time the oil is replaced for metal shavings. He believes the only reason you should do it is if you need that piece of mind. Good grief, now I don't know what to do.

The mechanic I called today came highly recommended from a fellow forum member.

I don't want to spend $3,000 on my car right now, especially since my clutch works well and there is not leak in the RMS/IMS area. I put very strong magnets on my filter housing and check them more frequently than I would change my oil. I am banking on catching it in time to have it repaired only if there is an indicator of a problem.

He must not be cutting those bearings apart or checking them for wear. Not doing this is judging a book by its cover and that doesn't work.

I was test driving a 996tt this morning and the salesman was tring to get me into a 2006+ 997 and I told him no more IMS for me. I would never buy another porsche with an IMS again. Mine has been good as I drive with high revs and was fine when I replaced it, but. I'll never buy one again, just for peace of mind. He didn't like my position on the matter.

The TT on the other hand was a really nice car. Not really the color combo I was looking for but talk about power. It had gobs of power in every gear.

^ I'll buy another Porsche with an IMS bearing all day long (as long as the bearing is easily serviceable 97-04 986's).

It's a bearing for crying out loud, just replace it at a regular interval. You don't even need to buy an expensive bearing. At the end of the day we're talking about one day at the shop, not a month.


To the OP, have you looked into get the IMS Guardian warning light for your dash if you are heissitant to plunk down the expense?

Parker986, I am local to you and sent you a PM, give me a hollar.

To others who are wholesale discounting the M96 motor series, you really are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To do such, especially now with the bargains available, would be entirely missing the boat on catching a helluva deal on a GT (996), Incredible Sports Car (986) not to mention a Bona fide Super Car (Metzger Motor) 996 Twin Turbo.

If you are considering these you simply have to look at IMS, Water Pump and AOS items as Service Interval replacement parts. The IMS Bearing should be dealt with sooner rather than later, when that along with the water pump and AOS are up to date you seriously will be sitting on a bargain when it comes to Cache and Performance.

P.S. Listen to Jake Raby along with JFP in PA, their advice is invaluable.

+1 on listening to Jake and JFP.

Make sure you get a through PPI to rule out any other problems. While it isn't possible to inspect the IMSB directly without removing it, there are some possible warnings signs - magnetic metal pieces in the oil filter, leaking oil in the area of the transmission / engine juncture, wobbly cam deviation angles. A through inspection out to look at these items.

If the inspection gives the car a clean bill of health, then taking proactive preventative action depends on your risk tolerance. If you're going to worry all the time, then change the bearing and be done with it. If the car is low mileage and the oil hasn't been changed frequently (once per year or every 5000 miles). then replace the bearing because the seals may be degraded. If the car has been a daily driver with frequent oil changes, the change the bearing when you replace the clutch.

Nothing is completely risk free. It all a matter of what you're willing to live with.

Coreseller, the Metzger engine is completely different and has no IMS bearings to worry about.

Brad

There can be warning signs... or your engine can just pop.

I don't give people a "doom and gloom" story on the IMS bearing, but if you have an appointment scheduled in 2 weeks, then just get it done. If the optimistic mechanic is wrong and your engine pops without warning is he going to buy you a new one? :rolleyes:

Kirk

Correct, which is why I listed the Metzger name since many think that the 996TT motor is simply a forced induction variant of the M96 motors used in 986 and 996's. The engine used in the 996 Turbo is a derivative of the Metzger engine found in the Le Mans winning GT1 race car, it also has none of the supposed weaknesses associated with the standard 996 Carrera engine.......:cheers:

Kirk makes a lot of sense. I would add that if you are concerned it will give you peace of mind to have it done.

Secondly I would say if you are well heeled financially and can afford to take a hit financially then don't bother. If you cannot afford the grenading get it done.....

I have the same quandry - 95K miles, due for new clutch soon. Mechanic pulled sump pan out and inspected for debris along with oil filter - they were both spotless. Suggests keeping IMSB as is, in the theory that if it has worked this long it should continue to work. Feels that regular oil changes along with inspection filter will detect pending failure in time to avoid disaster.

i'd do it again if i had to. i just did mine.

it was a great experience for me, cos I got to know more about the car since I had an excuse to inspect all the usual suspect parts during the process. in 1 go, i was able to:

1) IMS
2) RMS
3) waterpump was new ! (from last owner .. woohoo!)
4) belts were good
5) tranny was in good condition
6) changed the engine & tranny oil
7) the throttle body was clean ... AOS seems good
8) gave the underside a good de-greasing clean ....

its not that bad! since can do it with the engine in.
killing many birds with one stone .... well worth it IMO .... if you are a 2nd+ owner .... now you have a good basis to work off.

If it was mine then I would replace imsb at the same time as having the clutch done
....while I am in there basis.:)

My base 2001 Box has no clutch issues, has 40k miles so will wait till it needs a clutch. I have however the IMS Guardian installed.

Here's the problem with this sort of logic, every 996/986 owner drives and maintains their car differently. So his 48 bearings may be comprised mostly of people who drive and maintain their cars properly with low to moderate mileage. The next 48 may be totally different, that group could only have 1/3 who follow proper maintenance/driving with most in that group having close to 100K miles on the clock.

So basically sample sizes these small tell you nothing since your car may only have usage and maintenance similar to only part of that sample, which of course makes the sample size even smaller/more inconclusive.
The lawsuit was interesting because Porsche's IMS numbers for their flawed bearing design came from all of those engines that they actually addressed in their engine replacement program. They didn't include all the engines that may have failed but the owner simply didn't bother to let the dealer know about. Since then mileage has gone up pushing the original bearing closer to its sell by date. So the 8-10% figure you quote is as reliale as a Congressional Budget. It could be much lower or it could way higher.
But again the ironic beauty of this engine is that you can easily swap the bearing when you do your clutch, and a new clutch has utility no matter when you decide to toss the old clutch. Basically you get a two-for.

I my situation I bought my Boxster 5 years ago with 25k miles. Being the fourth owner, I knew it had been sitting for sometime and probably hadn't been driven that hard.

I bought my Boxster as a primary car and I didn't have a lot remaining in savings to cover purchasing a new vehicle or factory motor if the current one grenaded on me. Here's what I did:

1) Accepted the fact that I *should* replace my IMSB sooner than later (for peace of mind, reliability of use, and insurance against a more expensive replacement purchase).
2) Started saving up what I could towards that $3000 estimate (IMSB, clutch, & RMS).
3) As soon as I could safely afford it, I had the bearing replaced.

In the time it took me to go through all three steps I probably doubled the mileage on my Boxster through enjoying it and commuting with it. Don't be afraid to use it as is, but be intentional about whether or not you're going to take the plunge and replace the IMSB.

$3000 later, I have no regrets (other than there was probably lots of life left in my prior clutch).

If your boxster is just a weekend hobby car and you can afford to buy another one at the drop of a hat, then I'd hold off on the IMSB until you get accustomed with and attached to this specific car.

I would get drunk and forget about it...

until you have to change the RMS or the clutch... then I would charge it...

and then I would get drunk and forget about it!

Have you been hanging out with Toronto Mayors lately?

I had the same experience as the OP - ask several shops and you'll get vastly different answers.

I agree 100%. You can buy the original one from Porsche for $112, I dont see what the big fuss is to change it every time you replace the clutch...

I think a lot of it comes from aftermarket companies that have bills to pay and families to feed too.
Granted, certain years have had issues, but not ALL generations.
Ive said I was in the market for 97-99 and all I got was "you better upgrade the IMS asap...."
Those years didn't have an issue, but "I better change it out pronto and spend 3k" or whatever.
If the car has miles on it and the IMS is fine, why even change it at all?
Of all the cars Ive owned, of all the car boards ive been on, Ive never seen people so eager to replace parts that aren't broken.
:confused:

You sound very well versed on the topic. :rolleyes:

I suggest you do a little more research on what actually occurs when the non-broken parts do actually break.

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The motor pops.
If, if, if.....If the queen had balls she would be the king.
The 97-99 cars, and any other car have just as much chance breaking a rod as grenading an IMS.
Are you gonna tear down your engine tomorrow?
Have you researched what happens if you break a rod? Or wrist pin? Or piston?
The list goes on.
Watch out for lightening too.

Look, im not saying there isn't cause for concern for CERTAIN years, so be it, take cautionary action. But to have that same urgency on every Boxster ever built is just paranoia.
I stand behind what Ive said.

These engine have peculiarities, specific needs and some uniqe rewards. Otherwise everyone would be driving something cheap to run.


Also, this is a sealed bearing in an engine. No old school bearing lasts forever.
If you want to make it last forever, well there's some collateral damage you have to work into that risk equation.

The OP has not mentioned how many miles and if it's on the original clutch. If a clutch is pending, it's a no brainer, just do the clutch a bit early and the IMs while you're there. If you are not close to needing a clutch, that's a tougher decision.

The 996TT and GT3 Metzger does have other more expensive car-killing weaknesses that must be addressed for reliability and peace of mind. All cars have warts and a 996TT is no different.

8% of single row IMS bearings fail. They all lose their grease over time (and engine cycles IMHO). Getting it replaced *might* not be or even *probably is not* necessary. Maybe. I bought my Box cheap because of a IMSB failure. I bought a used replacement shaft and have first hand experience with the 03 S bearing. It was in what has been termed the "first" stage of failure. I believe all IMSB are in the "first" stage of failure after the first thermal cycle of the engine. My advice is to replace that sucker ASAP. The only catch is that simply replacing it puts the engine right back where it started. There are vast strings on this board regarding options for other design options. Enter at your own risk. Oh yeah, you might want to start a collection from the folks who sing "don't worry, be happy" to fund your complete engine replacement. There is an 8% chance (likely higher due to lack of reporting) that an M96 engine will pop due to the IMSB. Don't be a statistic, replace it with a new bearing at a minimum, and pick a redesign after that to minimize risk. I'm down my own path on this and I think I've identified and eliminate the root cause of early failure. like all mechanical components, the IMSB will eventually fail, but I believe I have a method to stave that off using the original greased sealed bearing.

Good Lord......If everyone took to heart what you guy a spouse regarding these cars we'd all be riding rickshaws. On behalf of Ferry Porsche et all I apologize, yes we have intentionally gone out of our way to sabotage our cars for 2nd and 3rd owners who expect nothing short of infinitesimal longevity. I give, don't buy anything, drive it till it dies and when it does please be surprised.................

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...psb40aa022.gif

Jake Raby, I have NO IDEA how you put up with it....................... Drama Over lol.

Didn't you say, in a thread about 993's, that you were amazed at how many different ways Jake Raby has found the M96 can (and often will) grenade itself ( 21 and counting, I've heard)?

I think it was 23 or maybe more, not sure but Jake will likely correct. The 993 is without a doubt a more robust motor, BUT, the main modes of failure on the M96 motors from what I've read are: IMS, Water Pump, RMS and AOS which I alluded to replacing earlier.

I then stated that replacing these known issues / wear items would likely result in a reliable / fun car for the money. Try buying a nice example of a 993 for what a 996 coupe could be had for.

My prior post was to let the OP'er know things can indeed be addressed, if he wants to or not is his call.

Parker 986, WE have cars which Porsche claim are the most vulnerable to this IMS failure, based on who gets what under the IMS class action lawsuit.

I have a 2004 S, was the same bearing as you.

My car had 23000 miles when I bought it in Nov 2010, my car had 43,000 miles on it when the IMS failed with NO warning in Nov 2012. I had the oil changed regularly and the filter inspected. Matter of fact the oil and filter were changed only 5 driving hours before the bearing failed, about 4 days before the failure. My wife and I had been driving for about 4.5 hrs bound for North Carolina when we descided to stop for a break, the car was working great I kept the rev's 3200 +. Upon stopping at the stop sign the engine stopped?? When I restarted the engine it was the "Death Rattle". Scared the s--t out of me, my heart was in my stomach and my stomach was in my mouth. At the time I didn't know what that noice was but it just couldn't be good.
The resultant was a catastrophic engine failure due to a failed IMS bearing.

In 2010 before I bought the car, I did some research and read briefly about IMS. I had a PPI carried out and everything was good. When I got the car home I took it to the local indie shop for oil change and inspection and spoke to him about the IMS. He said just drive it and enjoy it the car was in great shape. Later that summer I took it to the closest Porsche dealership for oil change and inspection and they also told me the car was in great shape IMS was ok, drive it and enjoy it.

Point is my gut told me to change the bearing but others in the know told me otherwise.

I think at the time cost might have been about $2000 for IMS bearing change? Do you have any idea how much it cost to rebuild one of these engines, if it is rebuildable after an IMS bearing failure? Do you know how much a straight used engine cost (junk yard) if you can find one? Do you know how much a Porsche factory rebuilt engine cost? The answer is it starts at $6500 (junk yard) and goes up from there to over $20,000.

So Parker this has been a long rant but the point is, if you are asking the question on this forum you already know what your gut is telling you. Remember its your gut, your car, your research, your descision and the worst part your hard earned money, spend it wisely.

You could do this, Bob Marley-Don't worry be happy - YouTube Just watch out for the ganja, or you could be proactive and treat this as a maintnence item. Just like changing the timing belts as has been mentioned before. Ignoring timing belts (on interference engines) has an identical outcome to ignoring the IMS bearing.

the biggest for me is that once that rear end steps out/slides, it cuts power to the rear producing yet even more understeer on top of what you've already have to contend with. Solution: 996 GT2 :D Or get the commando version

In a perfect world you'd have a NA GT3 engine, in RWD, mid enigne platform...with the cooling pipes all nice and sorted.
This is the car Porsche should have been building long ago instead of making 29 variants of the street-engined Carrera.

It's what he does for what I assume is a "very good" living.

He gets paid very well for "putting up with it". lol :ah:

This is a labor of love, nothing more.

For what they say, or the drama, well its like water off a duck's back. I learned a long time ago that if you aren't pissing people off, you really aren't getting anywhere.:matchup:

Well, lot's of different opinions. My '04 S is in the shop today for a new clutch, etc , and I decided to replace the IMSB while it's apart. If I decide to keep the car for the long-term I'll have the piece of mind that I've addressed at least THAT issue; if I decide to sell I think any potential buyers will know that they won't need to do it, and thus I won't have to discount the price for it. I hope that a buyer looking at a couple Boxsters may be swayed to buy the car with the best maint history, condition and all other things equal.

Good on you. A car offered for sale with a specific mention of pro-actively replacing the IMSB is a buy signal of enthusiast-ownership. It's impossible to calculate but I'd be of the opinion that you fall into a very small % of total Porsches owned. Which is not necessarily to say that every enthusiast has done the swap. One of our forum members has over 300K miles logged and was still on the original bearing. But that was someone who kept up with very strict maintenance practices and didn't leave the car around to sit/rot, obviously with that sort of mileage.

You did the right thing. You should ask your mechanic to pull the old bearing side seal and see what is inside - grease? oil? or some combination?

Thanks so much for all the responses. My car is 10 years old and only has 39,000 miles on it, which tells me that my '03 S is an even better candidate for failure since it hasn't been driven all that much. It has original clutch. I do notice it going into 2nd gear a little hard, so maybe it is beginning to fail.

Buying a new engine would be a pretty difficult hit to my pocket, so I have decided to keep my appointment. I know I will be nervous driving it 3 hours to the mechanic, hoping there is no engine failure.

Do I want to spend money if I don't need to, no, but at least I will be able to sleep better.

Parker,
Still waiting for the pictures of new wheels.
Enjoy
Van