It's 2013 - any updates on IMS issues or cost of engines?

[smshirk]

Originally Posted by rondocap

Jake and others:

It's fantastic to have such support for the engine on these cars.

But it does lead me, as being new to Porsche, to be fairly disappointed that such a large issue exists. All cars have wear and tear, but for a car to eat its own engine (and often at low mileage) is extremely unacceptable.

From my understanding, cost cutting at Porsche during rougher years is what lead to this unreliable fact.

By the way, I have a BMW and am active in that community and love cars; and I had never heard of this Porsche IMS issue until I started to more deeply research it. It's everywhere to be read, but for non-Porsche owners, you'd never know it. Disappointing.

Porsche has made mistakes with just about every major change in their development process. I think the jump to M96 is worse than most, but a top end rebuild for a 993, to turn out the check engine light to buy your tags can run you 12 to 14k.

BMW has had their share of engineering problems as well. The first E46 M3 engines were replaced by the boatload, but almost all of them tanked while under warranty. The "automatic" transmissions in those same M3s continue to fail at a high rate, and a dead battery can cost you several hundred dollars, a tow, and a software upload from the factory for every major system.

I only bring that up to highlight that all manufacturers have their issues. The real difference here as I see it is that Porsche refused to do anything about it but do an engine swap, and refused to provide any internal engine parts, tools, or even rudimentary failure rate data. Porsches' actions and non actions resulted in depreciation that has made the cost of entry into the used Porsche market to be possible to anyone. Jake and Charles have made it possible to be able to maintain those "inexpensive Porsches" if there is such a thing, to a high standard. We owe them more gratitude than I can describe and I hope Jake and Charles make more money than they can ever spend on these projects. Who knows what they'll come up with next?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by smshirk

Who knows what they'll come up with next?

Since our primary focus has shifted to the 9a1 DFI engines and Cayenne engine deficiencies theres not a lot left that we can develop for the M96/ M97. The focus with these engines is now to create resource materials, like my M96 Engine Bible and to instruct more classes to a growing number of technicians and enthusiasts that are dying for the info.

We started working with the M96 before anyone else to gain a serious lead on the competition, and it worked very well. Today it'll take 5+ years for anyone to catch up if we stopped in our tracks. As we move forward we already have two years of development and engine building into the 9a1 engines and have already found deficiencies and eliminated them.

Its constant evolution and thats what drives Charles and I. I am really bad about only wanting to develop, by the time something is ready to be sold I am so done with it and have moved on, that I don't even care if it sells.

All new cars are built like anything else today... To be "just good enough". This opens doors for innovators like Charles and I. Back when I first started my company all Porsches that had the engines where the belonged didn't have radiators. With those cars it was very difficult, and usually impossible to beat the factory at their own game. With the M96 its been much, much easier since so many compromises existed.

Today the only Porsche engine that impresses me is the Cayenne, other than cylinder issues (stupid damn lokisil in the non TT versions) the Cayenne engine is built like a tank with serious heavy duty parts that do not break. I am currently designing a big bore, 5.3L Cayenne based engine that should hold together with over 1,000HP of output.

I love those old 911s and still have an 80 model, but I wouldn't drive it back and forth to work 70 miles round trip every day, especially in the summer.

I've owned all the modern Porsches that I care about owning. I drive 88 miles a day, by choice. My daily driver is an '88 Carrera with near 300,000 miles on it that has had nothing done to it other than a clutch job a couple of times. I abuse and neglect it, but I drive it every day when I don't have to test a new engine in a modern Porsche before it ships across the country. I drive it in snow, rain, or blazing 100+ degree heat in July, which isn't too uncomfortable with updated A/C. I still believe that Porsches are no about modern amenities or power accessories. I prefer aircooled Porsches and always have; in fact until I bought a test Boxster to apply all of our crazy developments to, a watercooled Porsche had NEVER rolled a tire onto my property.

[Jager]

Jake,
You haven’t given-up on making DVD’s “How to rebuild M96/M97 Motors” have you? I have been patiently waiting.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Jager

Jake,
You haven’t given-up on making DVD’s “How to rebuild M96/M97 Motors” have you? I have been patiently waiting.

Attend my class on the M96 engine assembly. Its 4 days of priceless info where its all hands on.

The issue with a DVD is keeping it up to date. I have no plans for a DVD now and scrapped most all the footage I already had. Updating my book yearly as we learn more is easy, not so much with a video series.

The classes have taken over; I travel the USA and Canada for the Worldpac training Institute and have a class somewhere every 4-5 weeks. We offer our engine rebuild school here at Flat 6 once per year for 4 days, but it disrupts our R&D and production so much that I may have to move that class elsewhere because time is the commodity that we do not have an excess supply of.

The WTI class is a "complete M96 mechanical class" where we cover IMSR, and etc as an entire two day overview thats not hands on. My engine rebuild school is 4 days in my world and is all hands on.

[smshirk]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

I've owned all the modern Porsches that I care about owning. I drive 88 miles a day, by choice. My daily driver is an '88 Carrera with near 300,000 miles on it that has had nothing done to it other than a clutch job a couple of times. I abuse and neglect it, but I drive it every day when I don't have to test a new engine in a modern Porsche before it ships across the country. I drive it in snow, rain, or blazing 100+ degree heat in July, which isn't too uncomfortable with updated A/C. I still believe that Porsches are no about modern amenities or power accessories. I prefer aircooled Porsches and always have; in fact until I bought a test Boxster to apply all of our crazy developments to, a watercooled Porsche had NEVER rolled a tire onto my property.

If I had your commute I wouldn't mind driving my SC, but stop and go into midtown Atlanta is a whole 'nother ball of wax, especially after driving it for the better part of 25 years. I've been thinking about updating the AC to Griffith's or Rennaire, but right now I don't have any AC at all in my Weissach. I still have a much needed paint job to do before any upgrades. I drive it from here only to the NORTH, when I drive it. In fact I found a better way to get to your shop driving around up there a couple of Sundays ago.

[Perfectlap]

^ I lived just outside of Atlanta briefly in the late 90's. Absolutely the worst traffic I have ever experienced in any major city. It wasn't so much that the traffic tied you up for so long but that it was virtually guaranteed every day with no apparent remedy.
Folks were getting up at 4am to get to work at 8am. They don't even do that in NYC on a bad day.

[rp17]

The real difference here as I see it is that Porsche refused to do anything about it but do an engine swap, and refused to provide any internal engine parts, tools, or even rudimentary failure rate data. Porsches' actions and non actions resulted in depreciation that has made the cost of entry into the used Porsche market to be possible to anyone. [/QUOTE]


I hear many say that our car problems is the reason why they have depreciated so much. Some of that is obviously true but have you priced ANY german car that is 6-10 years old? Take a look at the M3 from around 2003. There is one near me selling for 15K and that wasn't the cheapest one. 04 MB SL 500s are going for 20K. I like my car but I don't think they depreciated enough to reflect this problem if its really that bad.

I appreciate the solutions from the aftermarkets. Hats off to you guys.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by rp17

I hear many say that our car problems is the reason why they have depreciated so much. Some of that is obviously true but have you priced ANY german car that is 6-10 years old? Take a look at the M3 from around 2003. There is one near me selling for 15K and that wasn't the cheapest one. 04 MB SL 500s are going for 20K. I like my car but I don't think they depreciated enough to reflect this problem if its really that bad.

+1 Agree. IMS has only a minor effect on re-sale value of the Boxster. My 2002 BMW X5 went from $58K new to $11,500 when I sold it in 2010. Just about the same depreciation as a Boxster and other similar luxury cars.

The difference is that most Porshe (i.e, early 911) owners are used to their cars holding significant value and not dropping like the rest of the used car market. The reality is that Boxsters and other water cooled Porsche's are now just like any other car (from a re-sale point of view).

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by thstone

My 2002 BMW X5 went from $58K new to $11,500 when I sold it in 2010.

How much work ($) was outstanding when you sold the X5?

p.s.
I don't think a comparably priced Boxster was down to $11K after only eight years.
Well, not if year eight came before the stock market crash/credit crisis of 2009.
I was checking prices pretty regularly back in 2007-2008 as I was about to add a red/tan 996 C4S and just park the Boxster during winter.
Glad I backed off. 996 prices took a severe beating begining in 2009. Some dropped $30+K in a single year. I knew of one guy
who picked up a 996 Turbo for less than $30K cash. And if we ever fall into a similar credit crunch (feasible) I'd hate to see what would happen to those lofty 991 prices.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

How much work ($) was outstanding when you sold the X5?

p.s.
I don't think a comparably priced Boxster was down to $11K after only eight years.
Well, not if year eight came before the stock market crash/credit crisis of 2009.
I was checking prices pretty regularly back in 2007-2008 as I was about to add a red/tan 996 C4S and just park the Boxster during winter.
Glad I backed off. 996 prices took a severe beating begining in 2009. Some dropped $30+K in a single year. I knew of one guy
who picked up a 996 Turbo for less than $30K cash. And if we ever fall into a similar credit crunch (feasible) I'd hate to see what would happen to those lofty 991 prices.

I had complete maintanence history and all work was done by the dealer. The X5 was in perfect shape but had a lot of miles (115K). With 75K miles I am guessing that it would have been pretty close to a used 2002 Boxster price. Of course, comparing an SUV and a sports car isn't exactly apples to apples but close enough for government work.

[And416]

Hi Jake,

When would you estimate the availability of the IMSS service/replacement by shops outside of your own would be ? Specifically in the Toronto area.