Drove a 981 'S' tonight...

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by stephen wilson

I'll drive one at some point, but from what I've read, the slight numbness doesn't detract from the driving pleasure. It should also free up some H.P. , though it is a shame to lose some feedback.

losing feedback is a mortal sin for THIS type of car. Fine for bloated GT or GT-lite or GT styled convertible. Engineering should revolve on avoiding that as much as possible. In fact they should engineer new ways to have MORE feedback.
How? Who knows that's why they rake in millions. It's not very imaginative to simply turn a sports car into a cushy, insulated plush yuppy mover. People are quick to point out that it's lighter, more powerful but it's pretty obvious that these things are driven by arriving at the lowest lap time (N-ring specifically) and not maximizing the driver's role.
But those are two incongruent objectives. Faster N-ring times mean the car must do more and the driver less -- certainly with more and more power that can put the average inexperienced , deep-pocketed driver up a tree with one errant move. So feedback becomes a secondary goal and you get less and less with each new generation. They are slowly destroying the key element of the roadster experience. It's like playing a video game on the easiet level because that's the one where you drive fastest and your mistakes never slow you down.

[Ghostrider 310]

Blue those 2100 pound cars, have no six airbags, no six speaker stereos, no catalytic converters, no five mile an hour bumpers they can't build one at 2100 anymore, there are too many regulations and crash test metrics to meet.

[grubinski]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Blue those 2100 pound cars, have no six airbags, no six speaker stereos, no catalytic converters, no five mile an hour bumpers they can't build one at 2100 anymore, there are too many regulations and crash test metrics to meet.

They can build one at 1200 ... :-)

Caterham Cars

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Blue those 2100 pound cars, have no six airbags, no six speaker stereos, no catalytic converters, no five mile an hour bumpers they can't build one at 2100 anymore, there are too many regulations and crash test metrics to meet.

The Elise had (almost) all of those things and weighs less than 2100 pounds. The Alfa 4C, next Miata and sister Alfa will also come in closer to 2 tons than 2 1/2.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2014-mazda-mx-5-miata-future-cars

I've seen a few reviews comparing the 3rd gen Miata to the 1st and while they love both, they admit to the 1st gen being more fun to drive.

[Ghostrider 310]

NHTSA Crash-Test Ratings
NHTSA crash-test data is unavailable for the 2011 Lotus Elise.


Too bad would like to see how it does, big question is why are you not pursuing a Lotus? As far as the Miata, with all due respect I'd take a 986 any day of the week.

[kls]

I think in many ways I'm the type of guy Porsche is designing cars for. I'm in my 60's and I love cars as much as always, and can I afford a nicer car. I read all the reviews and lust over the best handling, most powerful model - even though I will probably never put it on a track. I know the 315 HP on the new Boxster S is completely wasted on me, but knowing it's there and being able to punch it occasionally may help to keep me young. The problem is that after a couple of hours driving in my 986 my back begins to ache a bit and the noise starts to get to me. Enter the 981 - quieter, plusher, luxury interior. Others understandably don't want that, but it works for me.

I apologize to everyone on the forum for being the demographic that drives these changes, but as a kid I had to walk 4 miles to school in 3' of snow....

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by kls

I think in many ways I'm the type of guy Porsche is designing cars for. I'm in my 60's and I love cars as much as always, and can I afford a nicer car. I read all the reviews and lust over the best handling, most powerful model - even though I will probably never put it on a track. I know the 315 HP on the new Boxster S is completely wasted on me, but knowing it's there and being able to punch it occasionally may help to keep me young. The problem is that after a couple of hours driving in my 986 my back begins to ache a bit and the noise starts to get to me. Enter the 981 - quieter, plusher, luxury interior. Others understandably don't want that, but it works for me.

I apologize to everyone on the forum for being the demographic that drives these changes, but as a kid I had to walk 4 miles to school in 3' of snow....

Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm genuinely curious. If you have all of the issues with a stiff ride and loud exhaust, why are you even bothering with a Porsche? There are some really nice GTs out there with the same speed as the Boxster but coddle the driver better. You can get alot of car for the price of a new Boxster. The SLK, XK and Z4, even a used SL or DB9 come to mind. All much better at being fast GTs than the Boxster.

[kls]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm genuinely curious. If you have all of the issues with a stiff ride and loud exhaust, why are you even bothering with a Porsche? There are some really nice GTs out there with the same speed as the Boxster but coddle the driver better. You can get alot of car for the price of a new Boxster. The SLK, XK and Z4, even a used SL or DB9 come to mind. All much better at being fast GTs than the Boxster.

That makes perfect sense, but inexplicably I get sucked into the reviews on the Porsches and none of the other cars give me the same rush. I think a big part of that is mental, but I really like the way the Boxster drives - at least for a few hours. Also, although I can afford a sports car, a new 981 is not on the horizon.

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by kls

I think in many ways I'm the type of guy Porsche is designing cars for. I'm in my 60's and I love cars as much as always, and can I afford a nicer car. I read all the reviews and lust over the best handling, most powerful model - even though I will probably never put it on a track. I know the 315 HP on the new Boxster S is completely wasted on me, but knowing it's there and being able to punch it occasionally may help to keep me young. The problem is that after a couple of hours driving in my 986 my back begins to ache a bit and the noise starts to get to me. Enter the 981 - quieter, plusher, luxury interior. Others understandably don't want that, but it works for me.

I apologize to everyone on the forum for being the demographic that drives these changes, but as a kid I had to walk 4 miles to school in 3' of snow....

I understand this too. I'm 52 and struggle on the longer trips. I have both a 986 and 987. I'm probably going to get better seats for the 986. As for noise, the 986 with the top up is louder and does get annoying but once I'm off the highway and on the twisties I don't care because the top is down. I love both cars, they both have many similarities and many differences. In the evenings when I get home after work I take one out into the country and drive for 30 mins, I alternate cars and never wish I was in the other. As for moving into a more GT style car...well I drive a 991 all the time and it is too big for me and not as much fun, I'll take a little discomfort to achieve the joy of driving my Boxsters. Don’t get me wrong the 991 ‘S’ is an amazing car. If I had a 3 car garage there might also be a Cayman, probably would commute to work in it a lot.

[MikenOH]

I have not driven a 981 back to back with a 986, but in my short time in the car, I thought the steering felt fine. Maybe after 7 years in a 987, my recollections of how great the steering response was in a 986 has dimmed, but i felt the steering in new the car allowed the driver to put the car where they wanted and still allow the driving experience to be fun.

Without a doubt, HP losses, MPG numbers and the like are driving just about everything these days on new cars. I'm sure the Germans still want to get that "one with the car" feeling if possible, but with the above issues and ever widening tires, the steering response priority will suffer.

The only way to get back to the "holy grail" is to buy a used 986 or another true sports car with unassisted steering--all depends on where the priorities are for the buyer. Porsche is betting on--and I agree with them--that the improvements in the new car will widen the appeal to those that want a more civilized car, with additional creature comforts--while still having the performance capabilities that traditional Porsche customers expect in a car.

Having said that, I could have done without the Panamera's console; it may work in a Panamera but looks out of place in both the 991 and 981.

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

losing feedback is a mortal sin for THIS type of car. Fine for bloated GT or GT-lite or GT styled convertible. Engineering should revolve on avoiding that as much as possible. In fact they should engineer new ways to have MORE feedback.
How? Who knows that's why they rake in millions. It's not very imaginative to simply turn a sports car into a cushy, insulated plush yuppy mover. People are quick to point out that it's lighter, more powerful but it's pretty obvious that these things are driven by arriving at the lowest lap time (N-ring specifically) and not maximizing the driver's role.
But those are two incongruent objectives. Faster N-ring times mean the car must do more and the driver less -- certainly with more and more power that can put the average inexperienced , deep-pocketed driver up a tree with one errant move. So feedback becomes a secondary goal and you get less and less with each new generation. They are slowly destroying the key element of the roadster experience. It's like playing a video game on the easiet level because that's the one where you drive fastest and your mistakes never slow you down.

[fusionist]

The 986 is beautiful.

The 987 is handsome.

The 981 is a hot mess!

[Perfectlap]

The usual complaints have become common and are expected:
"this car is less of a Porsche than the last".

And oddly enough the Porsches with the most feedback are the ones that are most sought after, reel in the highest asking prices while the newer "disconnected" ones with less and less feedback end up as parts cars or are neglected when maintenance proves too expensive. Logic would tell you that a car that makes you look like a better driver than you actually are would be the one to get all the spending money thrown its way. Not the case.

When people complain that a car is less of Porsche than the one before it they're actually right. The huge increase in power made by these engines in just the last few years means that there must be more and more aids via computer. I don't see how that spells more driver involvement. I'm sure the cars could have been engineered for better safety, better fuel efficiency and more power WITHOUT dialing out the driver but those cars might actually be fun to drive. In fact in the wrong hands they could even be considered risky.

Originally Posted by MikenOH

I have not driven a 981 back to back with a 986, but in my short time in the car, I thought the steering felt fine. Maybe after 7 years in a 987, my recollections of how great the steering response was in a 986 has dimmed, but i felt the steering in new the car allowed the driver to put the car where they wanted and still allow the driving experience to be fun.

Without a doubt, HP losses, MPG numbers and the like are driving just about everything these days on new cars. I'm sure the Germans still want to get that "one with the car" feeling if possible, but with the above issues and ever widening tires, the steering response priority will suffer.

The only way to get back to the "holy grail" is to buy a used 986 or another true sports car with unassisted steering--all depends on where the priorities are for the buyer. Porsche is betting on--and I agree with them--that the improvements in the new car will widen the appeal to those that want a more civilized car, with additional creature comforts--while still having the performance capabilities that traditional Porsche customers expect in a car.

Having said that, I could have done without the Panamera's console; it may work in a Panamera but looks out of place in both the 991 and 981.

[WhipE350]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

losing feedback is a mortal sin for THIS type of car. Fine for bloated GT or GT-lite or GT styled convertible. Engineering should revolve on avoiding that as much as possible. In fact they should engineer new ways to have MORE feedback.
How? Who knows that's why they rake in millions. It's not very imaginative to simply turn a sports car into a cushy, insulated plush yuppy mover. People are quick to point out that it's lighter, more powerful but it's pretty obvious that these things are driven by arriving at the lowest lap time (N-ring specifically) and not maximizing the driver's role.
But those are two incongruent objectives. Faster N-ring times mean the car must do more and the driver less -- certainly with more and more power that can put the average inexperienced , deep-pocketed driver up a tree with one errant move. So feedback becomes a secondary goal and you get less and less with each new generation. They are slowly destroying the key element of the roadster experience. It's like playing a video game on the easiet level because that's the one where you drive fastest and your mistakes never slow you down.

Do you use blades and balata golf balls too

[bfenster]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

losing feedback is a mortal sin for THIS type of car. Fine for bloated GT or GT-lite or GT styled convertible. Engineering should revolve on avoiding that as much as possible. In fact they should engineer new ways to have MORE feedback.
How? Who knows that's why they rake in millions. It's not very imaginative to simply turn a sports car into a cushy, insulated plush yuppy mover. People are quick to point out that it's lighter, more powerful but it's pretty obvious that these things are driven by arriving at the lowest lap time (N-ring specifically) and not maximizing the driver's role.
But those are two incongruent objectives. Faster N-ring times mean the car must do more and the driver less -- certainly with more and more power that can put the average inexperienced , deep-pocketed driver up a tree with one errant move. So feedback becomes a secondary goal and you get less and less with each new generation. They are slowly destroying the key element of the roadster experience. It's like playing a video game on the easiet level because that's the one where you drive fastest and your mistakes never slow you down.

Hmmm... I'll bet those Ford Model T's had great feedback