Another IMS Solution?

[John99Boxster]

My IMS fix - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

[Mrmaddbrad]

Why not just replace it with the upgraded IMS bearing that is already out there? That requires no special modifications and will set your mind at ease...

Replacing an IMS bearing takes about 10 hours and a shop is going to charge you almost $1,000 or more in just labor... Thats why people complain, not because they're's not more options.

But i do like the guy's idea. its just a little late :P

[fivepointnine]

Pelican is coming out with their own bearing retrofit kit that will be about 1/3 of the cost of LN's kit, should be available any time now.

[tonycarreon]

just to clarify:

- LN's is meant to be a permanent replacement. **apparently not true anymore**
- pelican's is meant as a maintenance item, intended to be changed every time you perform a clutch job (not as efficient for those of us with TIPs)

- LN's is an entirely new design / race / bearings
- pelican's is essentially Porsche's single-row bearing with an updated seal and bolt

- LN has one kit for single row, and one kit for double row bearings
- pelican's is one kit containing a single row bearing, with a spacer if you have a double row bearing in your car.

- LN's includes a new bearing cover
- pelican's uses the one that's already on your car

** i'm not saying one is better than the other, that's for you to decide. it just seems that a lot of people have begun to think pelican is offering the same thing LN is offering, only at a cheaper price. if the price is right though (i believe $140 was mentioned as the target price), i can certainly see the market for it. if you do it at every clutch job - you've done 90% of the work to replace it anyway - and it becomes a normal maintenance item.

wayne did post a message on PP a few days ago that they've run over 25k miles on the pelican kit and no leaks. he's just waiting for the printed materials to be finalized.

[fivepointnine]

I thought even LN is now recommending their ceramic bearing being replaced at each clutch interval......(Im doing one of these with my tax return this year, not sure which yet)

[tonycarreon]

Originally Posted by fivepointnine

I thought even LN is now recommending their ceramic bearing being replaced at each clutch interval......(Im doing one of these with my tax return this year, not sure which yet)

i stand corrected.

Originally Posted by LN Engineering's website

...that may suggest that bearing replacement (or inspection at bare minimum) should be considered as part of the normal maintenance every 4-5 years or 50-60k miles, maybe even sooner with the case of the single row bearing.

[milliemax]

Thanks JOHN 99, I just keep thinking about ALL the other SEALED BEARINGS in my 57 years of life. (Thinking, but do not remember?) Thanks Again John99 !!!

[thstone]

Interesting approach. I like his creativity (same goes for Jake with the IMS Guardian).

My issue with all of the solutions thus far (LN replacement, Pelican proposed replacement, IMS Guardian, etc) is that none of them is permanent. If I'm going to spend any money, I want the dang thing fixed once and for all. No more 50K mile replacement band-aids or warnings. Can't someone out there design an IMS bearing replacement that will last >200,000 miles?

[linklaw]

I read the LN website the other day and thought it said they had 4 failures of the upgraded bearing. Did I read that correctly or am I imagining things?

[fivepointnine]

Originally Posted by linklaw

I read the LN website the other day and thought it said they had 4 failures of the upgraded bearing. Did I read that correctly or am I imagining things?

yeah Ive seen that somewhere also........kinda a bummer

[tonycarreon]

Originally Posted by linklaw

I read the LN website the other day and thought it said they had 4 failures of the upgraded bearing. Did I read that correctly or am I imagining things?

yes, for the single row bearing they state they have had 3 failures. 0 failures for the entire shaft refit (triple row) and 0 failures for the dual row bearing.

[fivepointnine]

of course I have a single row.....just my luck lol

[Jager]

Is there any detailed information on the three single row LN bearings that failed? Professionally installed? How many miles on the bearings? The bearing assembly is not easy to install and can be damaged during the installation if not properly inserted in the IMS.

[Jake Raby]

The 3 failures have all been single rows..
-One of them suffered damage from a tensioner paddle failure that contaminated the bearing with foreign object debris.. The bearing will not live through this, don't even expect it to.

-Another of them suffered a failure where **possibly** the installer did not get the snap ring seated correctly. I did the post-mortem on this engine and the actual means of failure were not conclusive, so LN did the right thing and warranted the bearing and I reassembled the engine. (This was not my engine or install, LN paid me to evaluate and repair the engine).. The owner of the car didn't have to ASK to receive this level of service.

-The third failure appears to have been a classic bearing failure; nothing was present to suggest otherwise.

NONE of the bearings we have installed via retrofit or full (triple row) upgrade have failed. No dual row retrofit bearings have failed. Out of 4,000 installs 3 failures have occurred, one of which was DEFINITELY related to foreign object debris collateral damage, another of which may have been.. That leaves one out of 4,000 that simply grenaded..

[Jager]

Thanks Jake... You are the best man on the planet to answer my question. I feel much better about my LNE single row bearing assembly now.

[nieuwhzn]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

-One of them suffered damage from a tensioner paddle failure that contaminated the bearing with foreign object debris.. The bearing will not live through this, don't even expect it to.

So, isn't that the reason that Porsche used (or attempted to use) a sealed bearing? Especially during breaking in of the engine there is always some crap floating around.

[fivepointnine]

I am glad to see they are standing behind the bearings if they fail, makes me look more towards the LN over the Pelican when I do mine later this winter

[thstone]

How many miles were on each of the three when the bearing failed? Inquiring minds...

[Steve Tinker]

Listen up people - as we all know, nobody knows the true IMS failure figures, but lets assume its a generous 2% of all M96 engines fail - and frankly I question even that failure rate....

The Flat6 / LN Engineering retro fit have had a 3 possible failure rate in +/- 4,000 installs - and most installations being performed by out of state independant shops which cannot be a guarantee of 100% correct installation practices. Yet even my rudimentry mathamatics equate this ratio of 3 in 4,000 installs to a miniscule percentage of failures!! A hell of a lot better than the original.
You guys have more chance of flying to the moon than having a LN bearing failure .......
zzzzzzz I sleep (more than) OK after my install nearly 2 years ago !!!! zzzzz

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

Listen up people - as we all know, nobody knows the true IMS failure figures, but lets assume its a generous 2% of all M96 engines fail - and frankly I question even that failure rate....

The Flat6 / LN Engineering retro fit have had a 3 possible failure rate in +/- 4,000 installs - and most installations being performed by out of state independant shops which cannot be a guarantee of 100% correct installation practices. Yet even my rudimentry mathamatics equate this ratio of 3 in 4,000 installs to a miniscule percentage of failures!! A hell of a lot better than the original.
You guys have more chance of flying to the moon than having a LN bearing failure .......
zzzzzzz I sleep (more than) OK after my install nearly 2 years ago !!!! zzzzz

Most of the 4,000 LN bearings are still relatively new and have low miles (as a population in comparision to the >200,00 Boxsters built over the cars 12 year history with a bearing issue).

All failure trends start small. The question is what the trend does as the part ages and wears.

Hence, my question about the age and number of miles on the three failed bearings. Were they some of the earliest bearings sold? Do they have the most miles? Were the cars driven hard or easy? Manual or tip? Or do these failures appear to be somewhat randomly distributed in age and miles like the OEM bearing?

Inquiring minds want to know...