Engine failure - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

buckstr · 08-08-2011, 08:12 AM

My engine quit last week with no more warning than a loud ticking sound in the last mile or so of a 10-mile drive in town. The engine itself has only 25K miles on it - a remanufactured engine from Stuttgart because the body shop overheated the original engine during a collision repair in 2006. No external signs of a mishap, so the next step would be to pull the engine and start disassembly. Porsche NA isn't making any commitment until I spend probably upwards of $2K to investigate.

A quick internet search popped up intermediate shaft failures as a recurring problem in Boxster engines. Any experience with sudden engine shutdowns?

Any ideas how to get Porsche to accept some responsibility?

Many thanks.

BYprodriver · 08-08-2011, 09:50 AM

It is impossible for anyone to post as much info as is waiting for you if you will search this forum. Good Luck.

mikefocke · 08-08-2011, 10:00 AM

at last count by an M96 engine internals expert. None terribly probable. And no way of knowing much until someone who knows these engines examines the carcass.

Your replacement engine is out of warranty (2 years parts warranty in the US for replacements IIRC). Porsche may do something for you if a dealer goes to bat for you and if you are the original purchaser and have had services all done by the dealer. But it won't be much and it won't be under the warranty but rather goodwill so a friendly relationship with the dealer is your only chance.

25k on the engine since 2006 means it is pretty close to a low miles per year situation and those aren't great for the engine.

A list of your options with comments gathered over the years from various threads is at http://sites.google.com/site/mikefocke2/what-can-you-do-if-your-engine-is-blown.

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

thstone · 08-08-2011, 03:28 PM

A little more detail would be interesting to hear - did the engine stop while you were driving? Did you try to re-start it? Does it turn over or is it locked up?

Obviously, if the engine is locked up solid then these comments are moot;

Have you considered fuel pump failure, MAF failure, electrical failure, or any other problems that would result in an engine shutdown? CEL on? What codes?

Its not that I don't believe your diagnosis, its just that I'd hate to have anyone tear into a good engine only to find that the problem was elsewhere and did not require such a costly action.

I'm sure that many of us would like to hear any more specifics that you'd be willing to share.

Thanks and sorry for your situation.

buckstr · 08-08-2011, 04:32 PM

Engine was ticking loudly for about a mile or so; the ticking rate seemed to go up and down with engine RPM's. I stopped the engine and restarted it after about 15 minutes with the same ticking. I drove it about 50 yards when it abruptly shut down, with no external indications or fluid leaks. I tried to restart it - it turned over very slowly once or twice but didn't fire up. A second try wouldn't even turn over. So yes, it's essentially locked up.

The dealer has been over the car with the basic diagnostics and hasn't found anything, Their next move would be to drop and disassemble. The service manager did acknowledge that IMS failures are a problem with that series engine.

Thanks for both thoughts and sympathies.

thstone · 08-08-2011, 05:24 PM

Thanks for the details. Sorry to hear that the next likely step is disassembly.

Here are a few thoughts on engine options as you go forward (from a previous post):

Option 1: Used Donor (eBay or equivalent) Engine This is the cheapest route - simply replace the engine you have with another used engine and do a 60K service to get the car back on the road. Future reliability is unknown and you may be right back where you are now (needing an engine replacement) in anywhere from 10K-100K miles. Obviously 10K miles would be a bummer and 100K miles would be awesome - but no one can say for sure which it will be. $3K-$6K.

Option 2: Refreshed Engine Some shops call them "refreshed" or even "certified pre-owned" and others may even call them "rebuilt" even though they are not really rebuilt. This option will generally consist of a used engine that has good compression as-is with maybe new timing chain/guides, a new water pump and/or alternator, new thermostat, and a 60K service. Be sure to check which exact parts are new/replaced because it varies. Again, you may be right back where you are now in anywhere from 10K-100K miles. $4K-$10K with higher priced engines having fewer original miles and/or add'l components replaced and/or coming from better known shops.

Option 3. Rebuilt/Remanufactured Engine A remanufactured engine where the engine is rebuilt to meet the original spec's, mostly using OEM parts. This is a classic rebuilt engine. Some engines may have updates like IMS/RMS but you'll need to specifically check. This option should give you ~100K miles of service but the reliability is (again) completely dependent on the engine builder and the extent and quality of the updates installed to address reliability issues. Likely to have a warranty of some kind so be sure to check the warranty details. $8K-$12K. Higher priced engines have more high quality parts/updates and/or come from better known shops.

Option 4. High End Fully Rebuilt The engine is rebuilt from the ground up with lots of new parts and all upgrades. Buyer may be able to specify some build details as desired. Engine is probably better than anything coming straight out of the factory brand new. Shops that do this work are top-end and their business relies on a good reputation. Should expect ~100K+ miles but check the warranty details. $12K-$22K. This will give you the most peace of mind (and maybe the highest performance) but it comes at a cost. Be aware that you may not get 100% of the engine cost back in resale value but that really depends on the buyer.

In summary, only you can decide which path is right for you and depends on how long you expect to keep the car, how much you love the car, how much money you are willing to spend, etc, etc.

clickman · 08-08-2011, 09:01 PM

Another option: If mine goes, it'll be a project car and I'll be looking for a 3.6 or 3.8.

Dragonwind · 08-09-2011, 02:17 AM

Sounds like a classic IMS bearing failure...sorry to hear the troubles.

Another option would be to just sell the car as a roller and go for something else, either newer or another one of the era that you can have the IMS changed out on.

Chris

buckstr · 08-09-2011, 04:04 AM

I appreciate the various post and advice. I haven't decided which way to go, but all of your thoughts are valuable. One thing to be sure everybody understands - the engine that seized up is a factory remanufactured engine installed in 2006. I don't know the history of that block, but it obviously came from and earlier model year.

Has Porsche improved the IMS in more recent models, or is this a lurking issue in all Boxter engines regardless of model year?

Overdrive · 08-09-2011, 09:29 AM

Sorry to hear about this. I believe it took them all the way up to 2009 to get away from the design that still had the potential for IMS failures, but don't quote me on that. Someone else may know better and chime in with a correction.

Should you end up with another Boxster, if you ever end up hearing weird noises from the engine again, don't try to restart it after you pull over and shut down...just get it towed.

If you're not strongly attached to that particular car, or if it depends more on what your budget and desires are, if you decide to cut your losses then it may be worthwhile to see if someone is looking for a car to drop an engine in or part it out and recoup as much as you can that way.

lifeisgood · 08-09-2011, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckstr

I appreciate the various post and advice. I haven't decided which way to go, but all of your thoughts are valuable. One thing to be sure everybody understands - the engine that seized up is a factory remanufactured engine installed in 2006. I don't know the history of that block, but it obviously came from and earlier model year.

Has Porsche improved the IMS in more recent models, or is this a lurking issue in all Boxter engines regardless of model year?

This dead engine not actually from 2006? Can you get the serial numbers from the engine. I just want to find out the exact year for the engine.

thanks,

Perfectlap · 08-09-2011, 10:49 AM

This is kind of crazy idea but have you looked into putting in an electric engine?
I only say this because I just read that Tesla Motors are under contract from Toyota to provide them with EV engines for the RAV4. Apparently Tesla use cheaper but still very effective laptop 'type' lithium-ion batteries and not custom made units like on the Chevy Volt.

I know there was a shop that was turning Porsches into electric cars back three years ago when oil spiked to $150. I wonder if the prices have come down since then.

Factory Electric Boxster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO17SBE221o&feature=related

buckstr · 08-09-2011, 05:55 PM

Serial number from remanned engine is M96/23AT65465746. I'll be interested to know any info that this S/N tells you.

To Perfectlap - A different suggestion, to be sure. Personally, though, if I don't put fuel in it and it doesn't sound like a Porsche, I'm not going to spend money on it.

ASpec818 · 08-09-2011, 09:26 PM

threads like these really push me to get rid of my S. I always fear something disastrous will occur whenever i hop into the driver's seat.

Gforrest2 · 08-09-2011, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASpec818

threads like these really push me to get rid of my S. I always fear something disastrous will occur whenever i hop into the driver's seat.

+1 It's really hard to enjoy owning and driving these cars when in the back of your mind you're always thinking, "will my car be next (IMS failure or some other disaster)".

J's boxster · 08-09-2011, 11:37 PM

Not to hijack a thread but as far as the electric motor is concerned, I have a friend whom converted a 914 to electric by a guy in green springs Florida. Cost was alittle high, but never will this car use any oil or fuel. Pretty cool car. And talk about fast!! It was 0-60 in 2.8 sec. No kidding!!! No lag at all!

DenverSteve · 08-10-2011, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASpec818

threads like these really push me to get rid of my S. I always fear something disastrous will occur whenever i hop into the driver's seat.

That's like saying "I saw a bicycle accident today so I am going to quit riding mine to work" which I do too. I would recommend that if you are scared of your car to sell it. There's nothing worse than living in fear. Only a very few Boxster's have a problem, and most have not been maintained or driven properly. In every forum, regarding every car, suv and vehicle there is rampant paranoia about something including catastrophic failures. Relax and drive......or not. It won't make any difference with what will happen.

Frodo · 08-11-2011, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenverSteve

That's like saying "I saw a bicycle accident today so I am going to quit riding mine to work" which I do too. I would recommend that if you are scared of your car to sell it. There's nothing worse than living in fear. Only a very few Boxster's have a problem, and most have not been maintained or driven properly. In every forum, regarding every car, suv and vehicle there is rampant paranoia about something including catastrophic failures. Relax and drive......or not. It won't make any difference with what will happen.

No, it's like saying "I keep seeing bike accidents, like at least every couple of weeks. And the weird thing? There are never any other vehicles involved, the bike just sort of implodes on it's own, without warning. AND, they all involve the bicycle model that I'm riding, which are really kind of expensive bikes---ones that you'd expect, through superior engineering, NOT to have this kind of problem---that suddenly, in the blink of an eye, become nearly worthless."

BUT (having said that)...I do agree with the spirit of your post.

Overdrive · 08-11-2011, 06:26 AM

Do remember though, Frodo, that this car is the result of Porsche learning from Toyota how to cut costs.

The results, to name a few: Lokasil cylinder liners that can lead to oil/coolant intermix, remanufactured blocks going into vehicles coming fresh off the line, poorly reinforced frames/suspension mounts for the first model year, poorly designed IMS seal leading to failures, problematic RMS, D-Chunk, barely capable cooling system, crap shoot AOS, 3 to 5 chains all with the potential to fail, plastic impeller water pump, barely capable (in my opinion) oil cooler, and drain holes that seem to get plugged more than drain moisture.

I could go on, but my point is that this was the entry level vehicle to get people into the Porsche family. Popular though it did become, Porsche basically expected people to get this, own it for a while, and then want to upgrade to the flagship 911. And even the 911s from that era had some of these problems, too, especially the IMS failure.

For me, while I know all of these potential problems exist, I can't sit and be worried every second I operate the car. If it fails, I'll only be upset if it happened while I was sitting idle at a light rather than when I was actually enjoying making the car do what it does so well. I'm getting my money's worth, and if something major or catastrophic happens then it gives me an excuse to simply save up and make the car into something very awesome and much more bulletproof.

Perfectlap · 08-11-2011, 07:33 AM

I think its more like:

I keep seeing these bicycle accidents where the rider falls off and hits his head on the concrete and the ambulance has to take him away on a stretcher.
I'm going to sell my bike!!!

See I ride with a bike helmet. No exceptions. Is the crash hat guaranteed to save my skull? Not entirely. But do I ride with whole hell of a lot less stress? Can I ride my bike and just enjoy the feeling of the wind at my back? Yes and Yes.

With the factory IMS as-is you are in a very very small chance of having an failure. Smaller still if the car has had regular miles put on it with regular oil intervals.
If the car sits, seals dry up, get brittle and the new owner comes along and starts racking up the miles: virbrations and stress on a compromised part lead to IMS failure.
If you have the IMS upgraded and take care of the car you are now in an even smaller chance of grenading engine. At that point I bet you probably have a similar likehood of a catastrophic failure as any BMW M3 owner or other German build.