IMS Guardian Pre-order
 

Didn't see this anywhere on the forum yet, but Jake's figured out how to give us boxster owners a heads-up when our IMS is about to go and prevent a catastrophic motor event.

http://www.flat6innovations.com/shop/product.php?productid=16285&cat=399&page=1

If this is being discussed elsewhere here, forgive me for reposting. Evidently, it's been discussed on a 27 page thread over on rennlist.

Gotta be kidding me.....

there was some early discussion during march in this thread

http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28288

I tried your link but Norton blocked it.

Got mine ordered.

Exactly how does this gizmo work?

agreed....no info on how it works on his site...
 

Interesting concept but I would like to have some more details on how it works before paying the ~400 asking price. I really would like to know how much warning it gives you...30 seconds? 30 miles? and what the "expected" success rate might be at giving you an adequate amount of time to take action.

$400 to tell you to buy a $600 bearing seems kind of redundant.

Jake is keeping the technology used under wraps until the device officially debuts in July.
Some details:
The device performs a self test when the engine is started to verify that it is functioning.
If it detects 'something' while running a warning light illuminates and a buzzer sounds. Depending on what is detected you may drive for a short distance or you might have to call a tow truck.
A 24hr phone hot-line is available to advise on the severity of the problem.
Installation takes less than 2 hours with just a couple of simple tools.
The switch/light is located in one of the empty switch locations on the center stack.
If a failure is detected that saves the engine Jake will provide a 150% credit of the purchase price towards an IMSB replacement done at his shop.

Many have sent Jake a PM on Rennlist trying to guess how it works. Apparently, the first correct guess gets a free one.

$600 is more like ~$2000 after factoring in installation cost. But you're right if someone has the conscience to spend $400 on that you might as well get it fixed.

Apparently, there's a 150% credit of the Guardian if you use Flat Six to replace your IMS or motor after you purchase and install the thing. So, a $400 purchase now is a $600 credit later... if you can get your car to a suburb of Atlanta. That's a $800 cost for me from Houston to have my car towed there...

Exactly, if the cost of the technology required to detect impending failure is so close to the solution, and you're going to have to get it replaced eventually any way, just replace it to begin with and be done with it.

I'll have to +1 that, I think it makes more sense to just get the retrofit done instead of waiting until your car is screaming at you to get it done.

Along with that, what if your bearing/shaft is already on its way out and you perform this modification. Is it immediately going to sense the issues or will it have to wait to see it get even more serious? I guess we'll have to wait for more details next month.

I'm certainly not trying to shut down Jake's products, I'm actually getting the retrofit done soon. It's just that when I see something like this, to me it's like flying circles around the tanker until you hit bingo fuel instead of just fueling up when you reach the tanker. Why tempt fate?

At least this will cut down on the amount of hand holding that goes on when the new Boxster owner inevitably learns of the frailties inherent in their new investment/toy.

So it is now...

Spend $400 for a warning light
Spend $800 and DIY
Spend a few grand and let Jake do it for you.
Spend nothing and drive your car knowing that all things in life are temporary and that the 105k on the odo is telling you to not sweat the little things.

The idea is good the "Hot line" is a bad idea, makes the normal service seem second rate although I can understand the profit motive.

I guessed that this is some form of vibration monitor as used by many maintenance engineers for diagnosing critical bearings on some (very) expensive machinery. It has been used for many years in preventative maintenance and is very cost affective when checking even slight anomolies in rotating machinery.
Of course, I could be wrong (again).
My question is will you still need the Guardian if you have already fitted the upgraded IMS assembly considering that no failures of the ceramic bearing have been reported by either Flat 6 or LN Engineering??

It also probably has a sensor that senses cam timing. Variations in cam timing are also a sign the IMS is on its way out.

Please PM your guesses to me and if you hit the nail on the head and you will be given a unit... Too bad you guys started guessing out loud.

With the diminishing values of the M96 powered cars, more and more people can't justify the expense of an IMSR..

Also, the IMSR costs a lot more than the bearing, don't forget that installation of the IMSR is a 12 hour job+. The procedure costs a minimum of 1500 bucks, even from the shops that are starving to death and doing the work cheaper than they should be (and generally half ass doing it) just to stay afloat. Charles and I should have employed minimum costs for doing these procedures to all dealers, because the price wars are taking away from the technology.

The IMS Guardian can be installed as a stand alone system in less than 1.5 hours as a DIY. The integration into the dash is seamless, you can't even tell the system is installed. The cst of the IMSG is exactly 389.00 for the DIY installer, no shop labor, inconvenience or hassles. The system provides instant sense of security for the cost of admission, plus 1.5 hours of install time with the DIY DVD that is included for free.

See this video on the IMS Guardian teaser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35o5r1HUMuI

The system was primarily developed for early warnings of IMS failures, but it will also alert the driver of 10 more internal engine related failures that can be just as damaging as an IMSBF.

The system can bes used in parallel with an IMS Retrofit, in fact we are carrying out testing right now with one vehicle that has an IMSR with the LN Ceramic Bearing. we are not employing the system to monitor that IMS bearing, but more to collect data from the retrofitted engine concerning operational characteristics of the system.

Don't look at the cost of the IMS bearinga nd the cost of the IMS Guardian as a comparative. Look more at the fact that the IMS Guardian retails for 389.95 and can be installed as a DIY in less than 1.5 hours with only a Leatherman multi-tool and one adjustable wrench. The system is that simple, I can now install one start to finish in 30 minutes flat, try that with an IMSR.

If you guys want to play the guessing game like we did on Rennlist, we can do that.. Delete your guesses here and PM them to me. Anyone who guesses correct will get a free system as long as the guess is PM'd to us. We will let the winners know in late July when we unveil the system in a huge ad campaign. Excellence will be doing a Tech Forum on the technology very soon, but we haven't even divulged to them how it works!

Oh, and you won't even find anything about this on our website. I have been trying to perfect it for 3 years and we are finally done.

As far as the Hotline goes: The purchase of the Hotline gives the driver of the IMSG equipped vehicle a lifeline directly to Flat 6 Innovations 24-7/365. Guess who answers that line? Me. Thats priceless when one needs it on the side of the road at 0300 on a Sunday with zero help. Those who do not purchase the hotline will have a reference card that will tell them what should occur if they receive an IMS Alert. All units will be serialized for ID and authenticity, the Hotline serialized units will have a door jamb decal with the hotline phone number and a unique serial number, without that unique serial number we will not offer assistance if an IMS Alert occurs, the reference card would be utilized for this.

Lots has gone into EVERY aspect of this, making it simple and effective with seamless integration into the car was a royal ******************** to carry out.

Do we have any type of incidence or prevalence data on failure rates? We're talking about motors that are well aged at this point. You can weigh $400 against the likelihood of failure with that data and make an informed decision - without true failure data, we have no idea if this is a worthwhile investment. The online community tends to amplify problem incidence as well...

If this has happened to 3-5% of 1999 cars, I wouldn't consider it a worthwhile investment at a 20 to 1 hedge. If it's 20%, then mebbe.

Give up on the fsilure rates.. They didn't matter to the three owners that had a death certificate issued from our facility for their car this week.

The failure rates can't be accurately summed, because ACCURATE portions of the equation are impossible to source. No one knows exactly how many cars were built, no one knows how many failed under warranty and no one knows what killed thousands of them that were replaced over the years.

I will tell you now that EARLY DETECTION and WARNING would have saved all 3 of the cars that came to my facility this week from all acorss the country with engine failures. One of these was barely incapable of being saved by our processes, literally minutes cost this guy 15K+. People will not listen when we say STOP and do not drive the car at all when any symptom occurs.

The IMSG alerts the driver before any other symptoms are noted, that extra bit of time is the key to saving an engine through a procedure or spending 15K.

45,000 dollars worth of failures could have been saved in these 3 cars from less than 1600.00 worth of IMSG systems being employed. All 3 of these failures would have been easily detected by the IMSG, undoubtedly. Want num bers? These are the ones that count.

Jake,

That was undoubtedly the most salesy post I've ever seen from you - and you've been an awesome source of info for the forum and broader community, besides the work you do and products you drive.

You use 3 failed cars as a case study with no evidence that your device would have prevented them besides the assertion. Fine - I can live with that.

But you say $45k worth of damage could've been saved by $1600 worth of parts and that those are the numbers that count. Huh? That's true if the failure rate is 1 to 1.

If the failure rate is 20 to 1, then $12,000 worth of IMSG systems need to be employed for each $15,000 worth of work saved within the community (assuming $600 for the IMSG with installation). The cost to the community is near parity with the cost of fixing the catastrophe in that situation.

I make decisions based upon rational analysis and not fear-mongering done by those who would profit from it. I don't care about the early cars that failed - I do care about how often it occurs today. I wish that information was available to me.

I have no clear indication of failure ratesand one of the people most in a place to sum up such information, you, has basically said "Failure rates are meaningless. Install my part". This does not pass my "i'm being scammed" detector. I'm not even saying you are scamming people - I am simply saying that your last post really does you a disservice.

My car is worth maybe $12k. With a blown engine, maybe $3-4k. My risk is $9k - for something that costs $2k+ to fix, $400+ to observe, and affects maybe 10% of the population.

I might eat crow one day, absolutely, but I do so with the knowledge that I made a rational choice based upon the best information I had available at the time.

Edit: oh, and if that information changes, I'll be happy to re-evaluate and potentially use your products. I have no dog in this fight besides trying to make a good decision for my own purposes.

Count me in, I will gladly pay $ 400.00 for one , just for peace of mind. :)

Totally out of curiosity, not criticizing or judging at all: Why are you looking at buying the detection device where the only end result is the purchase of the bearing anyway? Why are you not interested in just buying the bearing now and getting it over with?

I certainly understand statistics..
I understand them enough to know that in this scenario they can't be calculated.

It's really simple:
The IMSG gives the advanced notice that an issue is imminent and no other device or process to date has been able do this. That advanced notice is what allows engines to be saved before collateral damage occurs that takes the engine out.

Either someone sees benefit in such a system, or they don't... Those that do see benefit buy it and the others do not, that's the freedom that we all have as Americans. Those who do invest in the technology get a sense of security that has only been available through an IMSR in the past at a much higher cost for the total process. The IMSG also has the ability to seek out 10 other forms of failure that the IMSR does not address and offers a 150% credit toward a Flat 6 engine solution to those who buy the unit through us.

Remember: until 2009 LN and I had not developed the technology to safely extract the IMS bearing with the engine together and in the car. The development of the IMSG pre-dates the IMSR as I had this idea before we ever retrofitted the first bearing successfully.

People call our Offices looking for a sense if security all day everyday and we cannot give it to them honestly. The IMSG gives this to them continually from the dash interface with an audible and visual IMS Alert and push to test features.

Believe in it? Great, buy it.
Don't believe in it? Don't buy it.
Its that simple.
That's said, the first 500 units are almost already spoken for in less than one week of pre-sales with zero advertisement and people still don't even know how it works. The do know what it offers and that's enough to captivate them.

I was basing nothing on the 3 cars here now except the fact that all of them could have been saved if advanced warning was given and the proper action was taken. When the female owner of one of them saw the technology employed in one of our test cars she asked why in the world we didn't come out with it sooner.
The IMS bearing failure isn't what generally drives the stake in the heart if the engine, it's a primary mode of failure that leads to collateral damage that is much worse and not able to be solved without complete engine teardown.

The female driver we were referring to has an IMS bearing that is still intact, but has failed. What took her off the road was a rod knock that was created from collateral damage. Her IMS bearing could be retrofitted today and she would still have a rod knock, if caught early enough the whole situation could have been much different and instead if 15k, she would be looking at 3k with a credit applied from my company if she had the IMSG employed.

The choice is yours.

My 3 yr aftermarket warranty is just about done with no claims (that's great), and it cost me around $1400. This Jake device is a much cheaper investment.

HOWEVER, my concern is false alarm. If the thing records a failure being imminent, we stop the car and tow it to safety. Then we are committed to an expensive repair. All well and good the Jake device worked as intended. But if it was a false alarm, then we're out big bucks for an IMS bearing replacement plus $400. What to do? What to do?

Guardian teaser
 

Jake,

Just saw the teaser. Very slick and seamless system integration with the car's interior. I am impressed. The press to test feature really gives you away as an ex aircraft maint. engineer. Reminds me of fire suppression squib tests on certain older jets before lighting the APU.

Cool stuff!

Ok Jake, let me make sure I didn't misunderstand your post. So this device goes beyond simply monitoring what would bring about an IMS retrofit or replacement, and actually monitors other potential engine failure points? In the specific case you last mentioned, were you saying that the rod failed because of the IMS, or that the IMS failed because of the rod? Either way, you're saying the warning given by the IMS Guardian would have occured early enough to minimize the damage and possibly save the engine, yes?

BTW, I'm all for press-to-test being an aircraft maintainer, I wish cars had them, especially with all the different forms of monitoring that modern cars now have for various systems and components.

Jake,

I'm a DYI kind of guy for lots of projects but how easy on a scale of 1 to 10 is this install?

TIA

We all know that, but he also offers other great products too.

Even better! A self-proclaimed snake oil salesman! Can't say he doesn't lay his cards on the table! :p

Yes, Snake Oil is one of my brand names.. In fact I am wearing my Snake oil T shirt today!
Do some searches on who I am and the company I have built from scratch and you will see that honesty, integrity and effectiveness are what my name brings to the table. The IMS Guardian is no different.

Its a 2 on that scale.. Just because you have to route the wiring under the carpet, otherwise it would be a '1'.

There is a reason why it has taken 3 years to get this completed.. Creating the seamless installation was a challenge and that coupled to the press to test feature accounts for a chunk of the manufacturing cost of the system.

AND since this system is seamless and non-invasive it should not compromise your aftermarket warranty. An IMSR procedure will void a Porsche or aftermarket warranty. When the technology is released those with warranties need to double check their paperwork.

This is the reason that the smart purchaser opts for the IMS Alert Hotline at the time of purchase. With this someone can call from the side of the road and they will be asked a series of questions to include many aspects of the engine and symptoms. Based on this feedback an M96 Engine Specialist can recommend to them what the course of action should be.

Even without the Hotline Email and forum support will be available to assist those who have received an IMS Alert and need to know the next steps.

If the system gives an IMS Alert and the push to test procedure is carried out while the alarm is sounding the red light will go out and the audible alarm will stop. This means that the occurrence is "real" and you do have something going on with the engine that requires some form of attention. The situation may not be the IMS, it could be one of the other 10 modes of failure within the capability of the IMS Guardian to detect and provide early warning of.

If the press to test is carried out while the alarm is sounding and the light remains red and the alarm continues to sound, then something has damaged the sensor or the system and the occurrence would be considered a false alarm.

When we can reveal the technology many questions will be answered. The Tech Forum in Excellence Magazine will also answer many of them as well, all the other sill be addressed by the extensive portion of our website being dedicated to this technology, its testing, how it works, its features and overall information.

Any other questions? Comments?

Remember: I am not holding a .357 Magnum to anyone's head to buy this. If you don't believe in it, think it isn't needed or just don't like it- thats absolutely fine.

The pre-sales alone have already exceeded what we thought would sell in the first 6 months the product was on the market and its only been on our store site for SIX DAYS... It has yet to be advertised in any formal marketing and other than two forum posts it doesn't even exist.. There is not even any mention of it on our main website..

Is my peace of mind worth $385?

You bet it is.

Did I get this right? You pay $400 for a warning system which when it goes off (and who knows when or why) it convinces you to pay $2,000 to repair a failure that hasn't yet happened?

Yep, it will be a selling point, just like an IMSR. It will automatically build the character of any car it is functioning on, because the engine is known to be operating safely and is being constantly monitored.

Then buy a set.

Fully transferrable. Just re-register the serial number of the unit in your name as the purchaser and assume all the incentives. We are doing this so the IMSG does increase the value of vehicles it is installed into.

It is continually visual and audible until the system is disarmed buy the driver manually.

Zero. This is not a data logging system. This is a pre-warning system.

Pay attention. If a customer who buys the system directly from Flat 6 experiences an engine failure with the system employed and follows the procedures set forth by us they will receive a credit toward one of our engine solutions to equal 150% of the purchase price. This goes toward services offered by Flat Six Innovations only.

No questions asked.

Thats what it cost to have the ability to link directly to me when you are on the side of the road with an IMS Alert and you are unsure of what to do, 24-7/365. Support at that level isn't free, but those who do not opt for the IMS Alert Hotline will still get free email and forum support.

The 150% credit would still be applied toward what ever means of action is required as long as the system was purchased from Flat 6 Innovations directly, the owner was registered with a matching unit serial number.

If the IMS Alert audible alarm is sounding, you won't have any deer for a mile around your car. It is loud and gets attention.

Nice sarcastic post. Here I was expecting people to appreciate what we have created. I find it funny that on Rennlist the thread has gone for 8 weeks with 28+ pages, 415 replies and over 18,000 views and not a single individual made these kinds of negative comments. Noted.

Remember, you don't have to buy one.

Perhaps you fail to realize that when a failure occurs the collateral damage exceeds what can be repaired without a complete engine disassembly or replacement?

With the number of people who are absolutely unwilling to electively replace their IMS Bearing until it shows signs of failure this system allows them to procrastinate as long as possible while they are afforded a sense of security, both visually and audibly.

This is an IMS Bearing that is not caught soon enough in the failure process.
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._3678620_n.jpg
The failure process is made up of four stages of bearing degradtion and ultimately failure. Collateral damage created by the lack of IMS support and alignment is more damaging to the engine than thew actual IMS bearing failure.

This bearing is at Stage 3 failure. It was caught in time and was extracted from the engine and replaced with an IMSR procedure. This person was lucky because the engine had a noise and a release of oil that was noted before the bearing completely fused together, seized and then snapped. Note the wear materials inside this bearing, it did not lose any balls or other major pieces at the time it was extracted, but it only had miles of use left in it before it failed completely.
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._6159440_n.jpg http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._4629254_n.jpg
The owner of the car is still driving it today.

So the key to being able to save an engine withoput complete replacement is advanced warning. Doing so enables the bearing to be extracted and replaced easily with no collateral damage occurring.

Here are some samples of collateral damage that occurred when the IMS bearing failed, valve timing was compromised and components began to collide with one another, stemming from some form of IMS related incident.
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._3576620_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._1307404_n.jpg

What people do not realize is once you hear a noise, notice a symptom or actually grasp the fact that something is happenning to you, the engine is often times past the point where it can be saved without complete disassembly and complete reconstruction.

Put simply: Once the full failure occurs, you don't have enough of an engine left to repair.

+1 for being a nice guy in response to my sarcasm.

Certainly, I understand the implications of a failed IMS. I still say that the IMS failure rate is 2%-3% and thus worrying about the IMS is over-hyped.

I replaced my clutch two weeks ago and didn't touch the IMS. With 94,000 miles, there are 20 other things that are just as likely to fail in the engine as the IMS. What about those? Where is the cam tensionor guide failure detector? And the cam chain failure detector? And the... well, you get the idea.

That was difficult to do. I have worked my ass off on this project over the past 6 months and its been in the works for 3 solid years. Making this work and making it fit the vehicle so seamlessly has been very difficult. Making the system simple while maintaining effectiveness was the biggest challenge. I take this seriously, else my ass wouldn't be here at 0140 AM still working on the supplemental items related to the system. Thats an 18 hour day for me. The sarcasm pissed me off, but so be it. Doing things outside the box breeds skepticism and sarcasm.

The people who have experienced the failure would disagree with you. I am happy that you don't believe that you and your car will ever be in that 2-3% that you have stated. The lady that just sold her car today for 2750 bucks knew about this problem, didn't take action and ended up in your "2-3%" category. She didn't think that it could happen to her. See the attached pics of her oil sump plate.. See that little remnant? Thats all thats left of an IMS ball bearing.

Absolutely.. In fact the actual number is 21 things and thats just what we have found as of today.

Which cam chain, you have at least 3 of them and could have 5. They have a minimum of 44 links on them and could have as many as 136, which one will fail first?

The IMSG has the ability to detect 10 other modes of failure, all of which are significant and if caught in time the majority of them can be repaired before the engine experiences collateral damage.

The one thing that people call us about most, other than having an actual engine failure, is the ability to add a sense of security to their vehicle. Most of these people do not understand mechanical workings and they believe that a crystal ball exists here. We can't give them any sense of security without invasive procedures unless the IMSG is employed.

I hope you don't have any engine issues, but I will say that one of our biggest critics who believed much like you do had an experience last year that cost him an engine and his Porsche, because he could not afford to repair it. That person fought us tooth and nail for 4 solid years and then all of a sudden he disappeared and I'll be damned if the guy that bought his car didn't call us up to tell us the news- he actually found it funny because the guy admitted to him what he had been saying. He got a smoking deal on the car, I built him a new engine and lets just say that one went full circle.

I guess that Karma had a bit of a problem with him for some reason. He found out real quick that being in that "2-3%" really sucks. Thats the beautiful thing about America. I have the ability to design this system and sell it on the free market and you have the ability to doubt everything I say and express that to me. Neither one of us has to give a damn about what the other one thinks, it is truly awesome.

Okay, make that 0200 now.. I have to get some sleep, I have an engine to blow up on purpose tomorrow while under the watchful eye of the IMSG and I can't wait!

If this thing works like it's supposed to, it seems like a great innovative product. Not sure why some are ********************in. Pushing the button every time you start car seems a little monotonous though, I would prefer something automatic.

The pushing of the button is just a system test, a test of the alarm, as far as I know. I believe the monitoring function to be engaged automatically upon ignition.