Engine Life - how much do you gain
 

I'm one of those change your oil every 3000 miles (before synthetic, 5,000 now) guys. How much engine life do you gain, 5000 vs 7500 vs 15000? Any statistics or opinons out there? Oil changes are not cheep especially when you need almost 10 qts of oil.

I thought there was some evidence that you could change the oil too frequently. Something to do with ingredients breaking down during initial use. Personally, I can't imagine there's much benefit from changing your oil more frequently than every 5-6,000 miles.

IMO that's why oils are such a hotly debated subject, it's virtually impossible for the average user to quantify the gain in service life. Though I think the benefits of synthetic oils are well proven. I've run 2 cars on Mobil 1, one with oil changes @ <5K miles, and a beater @ 10K miles, both are running fine with 190K miles and the valve-trains look great. No internal engine problems. Extreme usage, or problematic engines may show different results.

7,500K on oil change. Change the filter at 3500 then change oil and filter at 7,500. :cheers:

The ironic thing is rarely keep a car to the engine dies. I see people rebuilding engines with less than 100K is it the lack of oil change, defect or being run too hard?

I would love to see anyone, with any engine, show a correlation between oil change intervals and engine longevity. I have never seen such a study anywhere.

I believe any answers that you get to this question will be anecdotal at best.

Nobody knows, but most have an opinion.

:D

i was actually told by my mechanic the opposite. he said that you can change your oil every ___ but change your filter every other oil change.

I think Consumer Reports did a study several years ago. If I recall correctly they used New York City taxi cabs. They tested a range of oils and then tore down the engines after 50,000 miles and measured the wear. I'll see if I can find the article. Memory tells me that they didn't find any extraordinary differences between oils. Fuel economy was slightly better with synthetic oil, but not enough to justify the higher price.

Having read reports of engine failures on this and other Porsche boards, I don't recall any in which the owner says they neglected oil changes. Most seem to say that they changed the oil frequently.

Used oil analysis can serve as a proxy for this. Clealry, there is an interval that is "too long." However, that is also tied to the quaility of the oil, the engine, and the kind of driving that one does.

I'll be recording a Podcast with Lake Speed Jr. who is the director of Joe Gibbs Racing Oil, and a Certified Lubrication Specialist in about 10 days.

Lake has helped us develop "Flat 6 Oil" and we've been working closely to solve lubrication related issues with the M96 engine. These efforts include development of an oil that has a higher shear at elevated temperatures that are seen with the M96 engine "starvation" incorrectly..

One of the hotter topics Lake and I will cover is the debate over oil service intervals as he has done several studies on this topic and has shared the results with me. These results speak very clearly as to what should be done and when.

I should have the show edited and posted around Christmas... It'll be shared on Itunes and my site for direct download.

If shear is the issue, I would stick with Red Line. As a class 5 synthetic (Poly ester based) this should take care of that concern, no?

Whatever Jake Raby and Charles Navarro (LN Engineering) recommend, is what I follow...I can't afford a new engine presently.

Flat 6 oil sounds intriguing, hey I have not seen an engine cracked open in a while. I can tell you that back in the day I saw some severe sludge inside engines. I fully understand that the newer oils have different properties, however, in general more frequent oil changes including filters are the way to go. I'll be very surprised if Jake's report says different, the factory interval is too long, I've never followed it since having the car from 14K. I change the oil and filter every year which equates in my short driving climate to around 3, 300 miles. Overkill? Perhaps but if you consider how much cheaper it is for us to change the oil than someone going to the dealer it's still a huge bargain and IMO, cheap safeguard of engine longevity, especially in a car that sees Mr. Yellow line now and then.

If it was that simple I would have just bought Redline... Which i have done in the past as a comparative and even ran it in my Wife's Land Speed 996. I'd not have 5 gallon pails and 55 gallon drums of test oil downstairs and a fleet of 14 test vehicles having samples pulled continuously if an over the counter solution was available. I've experienced some oils with high shear capabilities that were absolutely not suitable for street engines, some that would rust internal parts in just a couple weeks of storage.

We started working on the oil development in 2005, as soon as I noted that the temperatures were the leading cause of on-track failures we started looking for the best oils that had the ability to maintain pressure at higher temperatures. These temperatures were proving to be over 260F, even with stock engines and as high as 280F, which KILLS the oil in short order.

Through all that we have developed on a 5/40 formulation that I am testing now in my engines for a street oil and a 15/50 and 20/50 for the track engines as a full race oil that must be changed every 750 miles. The 5/40 is a custom blend made especially for the M96 street engine by Lubrizol. Its not uncommon for one 5 gallon pail of a custom test oil to cost 2K bucks, this level of development is expensive to say the least.

I'll post some data logs later from the same engine and car with two different oils applied as an "A" and "B" with no names attached to avoid the typical "controversy" related to engine oil discussions, especially here on the net. Please don't ask for names of each oil, because thats not the point I am trying to make, just illustrating the differences that two oils can make in the same engine, back to back.

As far as sludge and clean engines are concerned, well the newer oils may keep the engine cleaner through different detergency packages, but thats not necessarily a good thing. The critical balance of anti-wear and detergent packages must be maintained and the cleaner the oil runs the more difficult the balance is to attain.

The API started cracking down on dirty oils around the year 2000 when all of a sudden more people started leasing cars. Lots of these cars NEVER had the oil changed during the two year lease period and the dealers were ending up with cars back on their lots that could not be sold without engine repairs and extensive cleaning being done.

Lots of what the API does isn't done for the consumer, its for the car manufacturers and oil companies and of course, the EPA.

I haven't seen an issue with any oil creating a "sludge" condition in any engine when changed often enough.. Even good ole "Quaker Sludge" would provide a clean engine if the oil was changed frequently enough.

I will add that the oil we are developing may never be sold at a retail level to those other than our engine purchasers. I have the race oil and break in oil listed on the site now, but we are very concerned with who buys it, how it is applied and the comprehension level of the user. I have done all this development with a single focus, providing the best lubrication for the engines with MY name on them.

I'm with ya all the way to the last sentence JR, as a 16 year veteran of Marketing at Kodak, I would advise keeping all distribution options on the table in your mind. No sense developing the golden goose then putting her on a once a month egg regimen.

Correct, but some things are more important than sales and numbers.. The fact is there are items that are better off making up packages that are known to work as "well oiled machines" rather than being individually sold.

Everything I work with is high end, custom and application specific. First hand experience has proven to me that there are times when selling something retail can be the worst mistake made.

If it makes my engine package the best it can be, thats all I am concerned with. Oil is a critical and very controversial topic. Heck I broke my own rule by even talking about oil on a forum!

? for Jake
 

Jake, I was hoping you would weigh in. As you advised I put in Syntec 5W40 oil after my IMS replacement. You recommend changing every 5000 miles but how much will this buy me realistically for engine life verses 7500 or 15000. Any feeling. Will I get to 200K?

Time to make some popcorn.

I can assure you whoever is going to private label this for you has a different perspective on how much needs to be sold to make the deal solvent.

They don't care.. As part of our partnership I am giving them critical information that they couldn't attain any other way. They've known from day one what my full intent was and they are fine with that.

"They" are Joe Gibbs Racing, they have their own line of oils and while our volume with the specialty oils helps the cause, its not going to break their bank or add to their bottom line.

"They" saw what Charles and I had done beginning in 2005 and THEY called US. What they want doesn't make an impact on what I do, or my engines because its my engine program and I created every aspect of it from scratch.

Here I don't care about the bottom line nearly as much as the "red line" thats on the tachometer.

Today's World may be money driven and full of marketing bliss, but none of that matters atop this hill in the North Georgia Mountains where everything is paid off and we only sell what we want to sell and what works. Heck, time means so little to us that we don't even have a clock in the facility, we do most every job with package prices no matter how long it takes.. I don't care for the BS that high volumes creates and dealing with enormous amounts of people where I lose my personal contact with each and every purchaser.

Fact is I can build a million dollar engine and it can fail on the track because the oil that protects it fails, causes pressure losses and complete engine loss. When that happens the oil doesn't get the finger and doesn't have to deal with the failure fallout- I do and no one listens to explanations or excuses that the oil killed the engine. With all of our updated engines making a minimum of 30HP more than factory most are used for some sort of track duty, so we must understand what takes these engines out on the track and ensure that doesn't happen to our engine. Thats the reason why I've only experienced one on track engine failure which occurred when the oil pump drive key snapped in half, a part that we have since updated with a billet unit.

Development of this oil is just like the development of any other engine component thats upgraded, its part of the engine combination that starts at the inlet of the engine and extends to the tail pipe exit encompassing every component in between.

My view on this was the fact that we've upgraded the entire engine, so why not update the oil with an application specific product? The oil development is simply required, no matter the cost. When we gathered the data that showed just how hot the oil was getting and what the pressures were doing, the root source of the issue was clear and we started working toward reducing oil temps and developing an oil that would live at 260-270F and maintain pressure.

The oil may be available someday, but only after the time has come. I'd rather say that it won't be available than have 1,000 people calling to ask about it weekly when we don't currently wish to sell it. Development takes time and I won't sell ANYTHING until we fully understand every aspect of it. I did the same things with updated engines, we didn't sell one for the first 4 years we were doing the development work, my aircooled side of the house paid the bills and paid for the development. When our engine hit the market in 2007 it was already fully developed, understood and proven- we don't use the purchaser as our developmental Guinea Pig~

Development of the perfect oil for the M96 engine is ongoing and will be for quite some time. Every time we find a better oil, another "secret sauce" gets shipped to us in an unmarked 5 gallon pail and kicks the ass off the last thing we tested..

Actually I don't ever recommend oils.. Never have and never will. No matter what oil is used its impossible here in the real world to estimate the life an engine will live. Engines are mechanical and nothing mechanical can be forecasted. The only thing is for sure is engines are just like Humans, they all have an expiration date and we never know what that date truly is.

Change the oil every 5K miles, use the oil that you want and take your chances. Thats all that can be done. Do everything in the world, service the engine once a week and you can still roll into the Flat 6 compound on the back of a multi- car hauler as a statistic. Two arrived today, but one is getting a brand new 3.6 even though the current 3.2 runs perfectly- he wanted more power and confidence. The other one was DOA, lost an IMS and now he is in line for a July 2011 delivery of a new 3.8 from FSI.

Got Luck?

For a street car, would driving at 80-90 mph for 7-9 hrs cause internal temps to come close to those temps? Or would it require the abuse of track use to reach those elevated temps? I always monitor my coolant temp but have no idea what my oil temp is at during my interstate drives.
I've been chaning my oil every 5k miles and I reach that in two to three months.

Well trust me Jake, I may have surfed the fortune 100 wave but their ways are not mine. I thought if you were using a major oil manufacturer to formulate this they would certainly have a stake in production, I was wrong. As for "the way of the Jake", I don't have an equivalent shop or the physical ability anymore, otherwise I'd be in the front chair of those training classes. I can assure you that up here in NY, where the glaciers cut the lakes, much of the sentiment you typed is kindred. What repairs I can still effect physically, I plan out like surgery. My priority in repair is excellence. I used to live on Jimmy Carter Blvd, it looks a lot like central NY there, we just have better natural water resources, you on the other hand get a nice long summer with phenomenally powerful lightning storms.

Understood, can't predict in individual cases but was hoping someone would make me feel better about changing oil at 5000 miles and its payoff.

Anyone have statistics on the typical life of a 2.5 L engine?

My impression is that the 2.5 lump is pretty sound by the standards of the M96 engine. There are quite a few known issues - porous blocks, liner failures etc. However, I believe these issues shake out pretty early on in terms of mileage. If your car is 50k+ on the clock, I think the risk of these issues cropping up is much reduced. The 2.5 also has the double-row IMS bearing, and I *think* doesn't score too highly in terms of bearing failure compared to other M96 lumps.

From reading around and looking at the mileage on cars for sale, etc, my anecdotal impression is that 150k isn't an unreasonable expectation for most well maintained 2.5s, especially if the thing has already done, say, 70k and is running well. I still think they can fail at any mileage. But if you've made it half way to 150k, I think it's much more likely than not you'll make the other half without catastrophic failure.

Trust me.. Its not a bad thing.

Ever thought about all the contaminants the oil is susceptible to? Coolant intrusion, fuel intrusion, condensation are just a few that need to be purged from the engine at an oil service. Seeing what we gather from UOA and what I noted while using an Intellistick device in one of our test cars, even 5K is pushing it for the oil in these engines.

I don't care anything about a Fortune 100 Company.. As long as I can work on the property where I grew up, take an afternoon off to go fishing at our on site Pond or go Hunting out in the woods below the shop I am perfectly happy..

These oils are low production runs, made in batches of less than 500 gallons, or in some instances only 5 gallons. Due to this the volume isn't that critical and dealing with a company like Gibbs who has 400+ employees all dedicated to supporting just 3 NASCAR teams, they understand development, its cost and how the game is played.


I will post data logs of street oil temps and race oil temps later along with some pictures of some secret sauce in 5 gallon pails down in my lab. I am trying to finish an engine on the dyno currently.. Took a break to grab some chow and relax for a few minutes.. Day started 14 hours ago and I haven't stopped yet :-)

[QUOTE=Jake Raby]Trust me.. Its not a bad thing.

Ever thought about all the contaminants the oil is susceptible to? Coolant intrusion, fuel intrusion, condensation are just a few that need to be purged from the engine at an oil service. Seeing what we gather from UOA and what I noted while using an Intellistick device in one of our test cars, even 5K is pushing it for the oil in these engines.


I will most probably change my oil at 5,000 miles because I have always in the past and I am really enjoying this car. The original question comes from discussing cars during lunch at work. The majority feel Im just wasting money. If you don't keep the car till it dies or if other parts fail before the engine your wasting money. Of course every car I have owned I plan on keeping it for life but it never works out.
My bad weather car is a 89 BMW 325i (oil change every 3000). engine internals clean and strong, everything else looking old. :confused:

Spending money for your own peace of mind is not "wasting money."

:)

Only those with large fleets of cars or trucks
 

Keep the kind of statistics that enable them to cost justify their oil change intervals. How would you or I ever quantify Jake's track car versus my go to the dump car (with occasional blasts and one 6k+ revs romp every trip) versus your usage?

The closest we can come is for people like JFP and Jake who see dozens of engines a month and who do UOAs and record the engines history to tell us their conclusions after they analyze their data. And they universally say change early and often.

Its good enough for me.

(How long has it been since you changed your brake fluid? Said as one whose son lost his ABS system because the brake fluid had absorbed moisture over 8 years and took out about $1.5k in parts on his '94 Mazda.)

Brake fluid is one thing I don't think about, how often should it be done if you just use your car as a daily driver? :o

Change your brake fluid every two to three years if just driven on the street...doesn't matter if it's a sports car or your truck.