decided to cut open my oil filter too

[tonycarreon]

after reading Spinnakers Oil Filter Thread i decided to cut my filter open and see what it had.

77600 miles, 01 base+tip. That filter had 12k/1yr. on it, though I had changed the oil twice (I know, but I could never find a good filter wrench)

for those interested, bits of plastic and a few metal shavings...



you can see all of the photos on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7155723@N02/sets/72157624963658275/

[Spinnaker]

Well, what did I start here. Is this going to be "National Cut Your Filter Open Week"?
Looks like you have a lot more of those little black specks than I did. Either my tensioners aren't wearing as much as yours, or mine are worn out and there is nothing much left to wear off.

[Lobo1186]

if they are like dark blackish brown and kinda clear and glassy even from what I understand that is a normal byproduct.

[clickman]

Originally Posted by Lobo1186

if they are like dark blackish brown and kinda clear and glassy even from what I understand that is a normal byproduct.

Normal byproduct of what?

[JTP]

Originally Posted by Lobo1186

if they are like dark blackish brown and kinda clear and glassy even from what I understand that is a normal byproduct.

Changed the oil today and cut open the filter. 50k miles On engine and 5k since the last oil change.

I found little bits, 1-2mm in size, of hard brown glassy particles on the filter along with a few specks of bright red bits. No metal shavings but there was one piece of tan soft rubber, like a portion of a rubber diaphragm. Very soft and stretchy.

Are the brown pieces from the chain tensioners and is it "Normal" to find them on your filter? I probably had one or two pieces on every other pleat.

[schoir]

Originally Posted by JTP

Changed the oil today and cut open the filter. 50k miles On engine and 5k since the last oil change.

I found little bits, 1-2mm in size, of hard brown glassy particles on the filter along with a few specks of bright red bits. No metal shavings but there was one piece of tan soft rubber, like a portion of a rubber diaphragm. Very soft and stretchy.

Are the brown pieces from the chain tensioners and is it "Normal" to find them on your filter? I probably had one or two pieces on every other pleat.

JTP:

I don't want to alarm you, but I would rather err on the side of caution.

I'm not sure about the origin of that piece of "tan soft rubber, like a portion of a rubber diaphragm", but you should investigate whether that piece of material might possibly be part of the rubber seal on one side or the other on the IMS bearing.

Regards, Maurice.

[JTP]

Maurice,
thanks for the input. When I saw it I was really worried and thought of the IMS seals but this piece feels like latex, very soft. And from all the photos of the IMS I've seen the seals are black and the outer flange seal is orange. I'll try to take a photo and post it.
So you wouldn't worry about the hard brown specs?

[BerneseMtnDog]

Last oil change I did I also found some rubbery pieces. Looked to my eyes like some sort of engine case sealant "squeeze out" that had come loose.

Steve

[schoir]

Originally Posted by JTP

Maurice,
thanks for the input. When I saw it I was really worried and thought of the IMS seals but this piece feels like latex, very soft. And from all the photos of the IMS I've seen the seals are black and the outer flange seal is orange. I'll try to take a photo and post it.
So you wouldn't worry about the hard brown specs?

JTP:

Take a few high resolution photos and post them here so that everyone that may have been down this road can give some input.

It's not good to find anything other than dirty oil in the oil filter, but it's better for it to get caught by the filter than circulating inside the engine.

As to the "hard brown specs", it depends on the size and on the number of them, but pieces of the IMS bearing seal are the ones that should raise immediate alarm bells. If you are certain that you have not found any pieces of the seal, then at least you can have peace of mind from that issue, but I would still carefully monitor the underside of the engine for any newly-found oil leaks, as that may be another telltale sign.

Perhaps taking those little pieces of "hard brown specs" in person to an indie for identification of their origin (maybe comparing them to the material of other plastic parts normally found inside the engine) would also help put your mind at ease.

Regards, Maurice.

[Topless]

My wild guess is the bits-O-brown are wear from chain tensioners. Color and material look right. A little might be normal, a lot means new tensioners before pop goes the valvetrain!

[clickman]

Originally Posted by schoir

pieces of the IMS bearing seal are the ones that should raise immediate alarm bells.

What would pieces of the seal look like? What's it made of?

[clickman]

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=3086


http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=4206

[JTP]

Here are some photos of the glassy brown bits I found on the filter, along with the soft rubbery tan piece. There's also a red fleck I found. These are most of the large pieces, there are some small flakes of brown plastic on the filter I didn't collect.
I'm going to Charles Navarro's seminar next weekend so I will take these samples with me and get his opinion.
Scale is in inches, I didn't have a metric ruler.

[clickman]

JTP, your glassy brown/black bits look just like mine. Looking forward to seeing what Charles has to say. My bet is chain ramp. And of course, no one can really answer how long they'll last before failure.

[JTP]

Ok, so these bits are probably the chain tensioner/ramps falling apart. This is something I'm not going to replace myself so when I go to my mechanic, what should I ask him to replace? I'm not too familiar with all the different chain guides/tensioners/ramps that are in the M96 motor. Are there improved parts that I should order? Which ones are accessible with the engine in the car?
If I didn't say it before, it's a 2000 3.2S with 50k miles. 6spd.

[clickman]

I'm sure Charles will give you the best info! I know you can access at least some of them with the engine in the car and the valve covers off, but it's not the easiest.

[schoir]

Originally Posted by JTP

Here are some photos of the glassy brown bits I found on the filter, along with the soft rubbery tan piece. There's also a red fleck I found. These are most of the large pieces, there are some small flakes of brown plastic on the filter I didn't collect.
I'm going to Charles Navarro's seminar next weekend so I will take these samples with me and get his opinion.
Scale is in inches, I didn't have a metric ruler.

The hard brown bits look like they may have come from the chain tensioner guides.

I don't think you can get better advice than the opinion that you will get from Charles Navarro.

Regards, Maurice.

[Spinnaker]

I'd be interested in seeing what you find out at the seminar also.
The more information about what the debris material consists of, will help us keep our cars running.

[JTP]

Went to the Charles Navarro seminar today and it was very very informative. Charles is very knowledgeable on the subject and a great guy to talk to. He gave a presentation on oils, decoding the API ratings for different grades of oils and what is appropriate for what application. Then he talked about the various failures of the M96 and M97 engines and what can be done about them. And IMA Motorsport where the seminar was hosted was very impressive. The owner, Ivan, was pretty cool and he has a great staff and they had some amazing cars in the shop. They had a sick DP race car and several twin turbo projects. They've got some really talented fabricators and the shop is super clean. Very professional.

I showed Charles the bits I found in my oil filter and he identified the "tan rubbery piece" as a Porsche sealant excess that worked loose. I think he called it Drybond or something like that. The glassy brown bits were most likely polyamide from the Vario Cam tensioner guides. The tensioner actuates at ~2400 rpm and not in a smooth action, more like a sudden on or off action. Plus the heat really affects the polymer over the years. From the size and amount of bits in the filter now, it's not cause for much concern now, but recommended I keep a close eye on how much I collect in the oil filter. I didn't have any metal in the filter but I'll be getting the magnetic drain plug to monitor any other unwanted wear.

If a seminar like this is scheduled for your area, I highly recommend it. I was surprised the entire Potomac PCA didn't show up.

[tonycarreon]

sadly i had planned on going but am in the middle of planning a move. around 11a i remembered today was the seminar. the dogs ran out of the room when i said a few choice adult words...