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Please help, Engine vibration ....
Good Morning Everyone,
Apologies in advance for this being my first post however I only just bought myself a nice tidy 2000 Boxster 2.7 over the weekend. On driving her the 400 miles home I seem to have encountered a problem ! Once on the open road I opened her up a little and all was well but as the revs passed 5,500 rpm I noticed what can only be described as heavy engine vibration followed by the check engine light flashing at me. I backed off and the vibration went away and the light went off. I drove sensible the rest of the way home then yesterday took her for a spin to see what she done. Again above 5,500 rpm the vibration started and the light came on again, this time on bacing off the vibration went but the light stayed on. Low down the revs etc she drives fine even though the light is still on but any time you go above 5,500 ish it shudders quite a bit and feels really nasty. At that point the light goes from solid to flashing again until you back off. Now last night an additional issue has come to light, she seems to be dripping some oil when parked after a drive now too. Not much but enough to be concerned about ! Ive not had a chance to look and see where the oil is coming from yet but im thinking the vibration has damaged something and caused the leak. What could be causing the vibrations ? Just to add, I have owned many performance cars but generally stuck to japanese stuff, last car a Skyline GTR with over 600bhp. I do all my own work on cars etc and also can get access to a fault code reader to check why the light come on, but something really does feel mechanically wrong here :( |
SS, This car doesn't sound tidy at all, it sounds like it has any one of many possible serious, expensive, internal engine problems, that theory being fortified by the oil leak. Is there any way to approach the PO for a refund or force them by law to repair it?
If not, your cheapest option might be a used engine. |
Not sure what your problem might be but do not drive the car if the CEL is flashing, if it's solid that's okay but flashing is an indication of something very bad and driving the car could cause major damage.
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The Boxster M96 engine is usually very smooth all the way up to redline - you definately have a problem. It could be anything from a coil pack failure @ high revs, an engine mount failing or an IMS bearing.
1) Read the fault codes before you do anything else....othrewise you are just guessing. 2) Get the car up on jackstand and determine where the oil is coming from - if its from the bottom of the bellhousing its either a RMS (rear main seal) or IMS (intermediate shaft) seal or bearing. Let us know what the fault code(s) are, someone here will be able to point you in the right direction...... |
Multiple cylinder misfire on all cylinders apart from 3 and 6.
Had it all apart today and replaced the dual mass flywheel as that looked to be knackered, It was so knackered that it was actually wobbling that much it had managed to hit the bell housing on the gearbox and score it round its outer edge !!!! Pics to follow when I get them off the camera. Luckily the box is not damaged and its only cosmetic which can only be seen with it removed from the car. It was indeed the RMS causing my oil leak but it was only leaking at the point where the vibration happens. I got hold of a brand new DMF and fitted my new RMS, got her all back together and guess what ..... still vibrations, still get the CEL light coming on past 5500 rpm then it stays solid until I plug in my OBD tool and pull the codes then reset them. Again the codes are for multiple misfires on 1, 5, 2, 4 .... And again when it vibrates the RMS starts leaking oil ! Im losing the plot with this car already as I cannot see why it would be doing this, it feels like something is imbalanced, Im begining to wonder if the damaged flywheel has cause my crankshaft to bend ? Surely not ? Has anyone ever suffered a bent or warped crank on an M96 ?? Could a misfire cause this sort of vibration issue meaning it is just a case of replacing 4 coilpacks ? I think its safe to say I now know why it was a good £3k below book price despite having full porsche and indy service history ! Any thoughts are welcome, Tomorrow im going to pull the starter out and clock the flywheel while turning the engine by hand to see if its running true or if its warped in some way. Hopefully this will show if its an issue with the crank or not. Im hoping its not though :( |
Pull the front mount and have a look could be your whole problem
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SS + 1 as Matt says.... but,
1) The leaking new bearing seal so soon after replacement is a definate worry - how much is it leaking? Indeed a severely unbalanced flywheel could theoretically twist the end of the crankshaft, so clocking the flywheel is a good idea - I wish you luck as a bad result is going to hurt.... 2) If you have muliple missfires on 4 out of 6 cylinders, surely it will also cause severe vibration at high revs - but do you get a power loss too? Changing the 4 coilpacks (or even moving two of them to the "good" cylinders to see if the problem swaps positions on the OBD tool) is a relatively cheap option. Keep us informed....... |
Well, bad news im afraid :(
Pulled her all apart again and the new seal is wrecked. The end of the crank appears to be bent, I cranked the engine over without the clutch fitted or the box on so I could watch the new flywheel and it wobbles like a buckled wheel :( I rekon as you have said the damaged flywheel has damaged the crank, I just dont know how it has warped so easily being such a short crank. Either way the engine is going to be pulled apart next weekend when I get a chance to investigate. The front mount BTW was also shot, however looked quite new so I think its died due to the imbalance issue with the crank. The way I see it now I have a few options, 1) Complete drop in replacement engine 2) Replace the bottom end as a complete unit using my heads etc 3) Tear down the engine and rplace the crank and bearings (assuming the bearing housings are still intact) Im looking into quotes for the parts to progress so will keep you all informed. I rekon im looking at about £1500 to sort this out. I just keep telling myself it will be worth it when its done ! Im just a bit miffed as I sold my 600bhp GTR to buy something "reliable" and now im in here pulling engines apart !!! LOL |
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SS, The front engine mount tends to go early on the Boxster, my belief is that is do to excessive heat. Combined with whatever happen to the engine, it's no surprise it's shot. If I were you, I'd look for a used engine in good shape, it might be cheaper in the long run, good luck. |
Damn this is very sad to read.. :/
Any way you can get back to the seller because he hidded something?? Tell yourself at least you have the advantage of having a good mecanic background and been able to do some work youself.. imagin the bill if you had it tow fo the dealer and pay them to investigate all that.. |
SS
Just be very aware that these M96 engines are very complex pieces of kit - more so than the straight 6 Nissan units. Before embarking on a teardown, I would suggest you obtain as much info as you can on the complexities / costs / tools etc you are going to need campared to (say) going to Porsch specialists like Hartech or Autofarm for advice. Whichever way you go, best of luck & keep us informed of the results..... |
Cheers Steve,
I'm aware there complex but not as complex as some of the stuff I have rebuilt :) Rebuilt some Rotarys along with upgrades at the same time also done a Mitsi V6 Mivec engine recently and I have rebuilt gas turbines and various other mechanical/electrical systems through my line of work too so the wee boxxer engine is a piece of cake in comparison :) Plus I also have the full workshop manual to hand too :) Also have all tools that I will need which I have collected over the last few years of messing about with all manner of engines/vehicles. There was me thinking now that Im an Instrument Tech to trade I would no longer be getting my hands oily ! grrrr LOL Dont have any comeback with the seller as it was a private sale and sold as seen. On the test drive the car drove fine, although I didnt give it quite as much abuse as I probably should have !!! My own fault though, and to be honest I actually believe the seller had no idea there were any issues as he was the type of guy who would probably only ever drive below 4000 rpm !!! LOL |
SS you're a saint, why? Well I for one think the PO knew exactly what was wrong with that automobile. Sounds like you have an impressive resume to tear down a m96. I would however, heed Steve Tinker's advise as I have read where even full-time mechanics would have a hard time with the M96. Good luck, we will certainly be pulling for you to resurrect the Boxster.
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Cheers dude, I do genuinely believe the guy I got the car from was unaware, believe me I have bought some seriously rough cars in the past deliberatly to fix up and sell on as I enjoy doing so and you can get a feel for people. This guy was 100% clueless about cars other than that he knew how to drive one LOL There are even receipts for having a wiper blade replaced so basically anytime this car needed something done, it went off to a garage and he payed silly amounts for it to be put right. Thats aside though, theres no point in being angry about it, At the end of the day I have bought a well optioned boxster for about £3000 less than the current UK market value, so even at worst if I did source a full engine and drop that In I still theoretically wont be out of pocket other than for my time involved to sort it. But that would be the easy way out ! I never jump to replacing a full engine until I know exactly what failed. I once bought a car which had a suspected blown engine which on full investigation turned out to be some bad wiring and a small oil leak ! Cost to fix ----- £10 whereas anyone else would have replaced the engine and it would have cost ££££'s This M96 failure though is a bit of a special one from what I can see so far, in that the failure has not been noted before anywhere I can see online. I have been in contact with flat6innovations and Jake is keen for me to keep him updated on my findings as he has not even had one of these engines with these sort of symptoms. on the plus side .... my IMS appears to be in perfect condition !! haha ! |
Well SS, god bless you and your positivity, it's very refreshing. Besides, you have a failed engine that isn't because of an IMS, we love you just for that!
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Indeed, if i end up replacing the engine I may take the IMS from mine and retro fit it simply because I know its a good one ! LOL
Ach if you dont laugh you will only cry so its good to just be positive. At the end of the day its all nuts and bolts and It will get fixed, just a matter of when as its happened at a really bad time for me ! Im moving house at the weekend and start a new job in 2 weeks so its all come at once ! |
Keep us posted, Steve...your attitude is very refreshing. Instead of pointing fingers and "poor me" ramblings, you are attacking the problem head on and, hopefully, we'll all learn from your experience.
I have no where near the talent you possess, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express recently (American joke). |
Thanks all for the kind words, its nice to feel like I have some support and it makes me all the more determined to get this sorted ASAP so that I can start enjoying the car :)
I have already decided I will be keeping this one for 8 - 12 months then moving up to a boxster S for a bit before finally moving onwards to a nice 911 as I have ALWAYS wanted one !! |
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Don't be surprised if you like the Box S better, personally, I'd take a Cayman S over a 911 unless said 911 was a gt3rs. |
Updates
Well,
after a busy Saturday the engine is out and mostly stripped back, but again I only had 1 day and ran out of time. I clocked the crank and its showing 0.45mm of runout at the flywheel end which is a fair whack more than the Porsche tolerance of 0.04mm !!! It appears that indeed I have somehow got a bent crankshaft ! its not broken but is definately bent. Its also not the bearings causing the runout as theres not metallic residue in the oil etc either. It does sound impossible to have bent such a tough piece of steel but the proof is now here that it can be done ! I have a new crankshaft and cradle on my watch list on eBay so hopefully will have her running sweet again very soon :) |
If this guy can do it so can you. I have rebuilt engines from 6 to V-8's, mostly Chevy engines. My dad had an auto machine shop and I was a grease monkey by 10 years old. Engines are not hard to rebuild...all you need is the right tools, a work place and a good tech manual. Go to this guys website and see how he did it. :cheers:
http://www.986fix.com/ |
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Cheers for the link, I have no worries about rebuilding it, my only hold up is getting the parts I need at a reasonable price but like I say, hopefully by the end of today Ill have all the parts bought and on route for reassembly ! The killer is the shipping of the crank and cradle assembly from the USA to Scotland, its over $200 due to the weight :( |
Ouch ! What a mess !
Well folks results are in, I will post the full explanation of the issue tomorrow but for now, enjoy some pictures ! :cool:
New parts are all on order and will be here next week so next weekend its rebuild time and boxster back to life ! woohoo ! http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/SDC10029.jpg http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/SDC10030.jpg http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/SDC10031.jpg http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/SDC10032.jpg http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/SDC10033.jpg |
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Well first thing first, love the red head on you tabloid, Young, Gifted & Scots. I'm a Scots. No 2, the shot of you standing in the car and knelling behind your car, looks like your twins. Last but not least...that's a spun bearing and the only thing that causes that is, one, engine run low on oil or they put cheap oil or even SAE type. What the heck is all those little springs. :eek:
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Mate, that is just great that you are sharing what you are going through & the work required to get it right.
I love my BOX, but would only go so far as pull the engine out. Any stripping down would be left to experts. Goodluck & keep us up to date. Dave from Aussie. |
Well JCB you would think that wouldnt you ???
BUT its actually not a spun bearing ! LOL What happened is if you look in the lower pictures of the flywheel end of the crank still sitting in the cradle you can actually see its bent just in at the bearing. The process of self destruction was as follows: 1) Dual mass flywheel failed causing imbalance in the end of the crank. 2) Last main beaing began to wear excessively causing more imbalance and movement in end of crank. 3) Imbalance at high RPM caused crank flex leading to the flywheel/clutch assembly contacting the gearbox bellhousing. 4) Bellhousing contact "kinked" the end of the crankshaft (forces in excess of 1800 Nm acting upon the end of the crank) 5) Clutch was damaged and started to slip 6) Previous Owner took car to garage regarding the clutch issue and strange vibrations at certain RPM 7) Garage incorrectly renewed the flywheel which was found to be faulty and replaced the clutch but DID NOT check for damage to the crankshaft 8) Car ran not too bad for 6 months being driven normally but due to the now kinked crank the bearing wear in the last main bearing got worse and worse. 9) Eventually the main bearing nearest the flywheel failed completely due to the huge forces acting upon it through crank imbalance and the next in bearing began to wear. 10) The now huge amounts of crank movement damaged the new DMF and was allowing the assembly to wiggle about contacting parts of the gearbox bellhousing again whilst all the time wearing the end and second main bearings more and more to the point of complete destruction. The bottom liine is that the bearings have lost their white metal coating and completely destoyed the already badly damaged crankshaft. It really is amazing to think that this engine was actually running sweet below 5500 rpm with no nasty noises !!!!! The bits of spring that you see are from the RMS which was also badly damaged due to the movement in the crankshaft. Luckily the filter in the oil pump has done its job incredibly well and NO debris has entered the pump or been moved round the rest of the engine meaining that the engine is repairable due to catching this in time ! It does look like a spun bearing at first glance but you can tell its not due to a few things, Firstly the crank is clearly bent at one end, theres no doubt about that ! theres 0.43mm of runout on it which is crazy ! Secondly the locating tabs on the bearing shells are all intact and not damaged indicatiing that the bearings have not spun in the cradle. Thirdly the cradle is completely undamaged somehow and there are not any signs of damage to the cups which hold the bearing shells. I have ordered a new crankshaft and a cradle with main bearings as a complete unit so hopefully when it arrives I can get this beast back together within the next week and begin enjoying my Boxster again as it was designed to be ! |
Sideways....
I have never heard or ever seen a flywheel cause this kind of problem. Even during my drag racing days. The rear main may have been starved from oil and overheated, then the crank warped. The bearing does not have to spin and that's a huge plus. Let us know what all you did and what you spent. I'm curious how each tackles this problem of rebuilding a flat 6 and how they may cut a corner to save a few bucks. By the way, what year is the Boxster and what did you get it for $$$$$. PS. Maybe you should do the assembling in your living room. Built a Lotus engine one time like that. :cheers: |
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Normally I would agree, however .... Afetr speaking with the Vibration guy at my work who does the balancing etc on the turbines and then with speaking to a very close friend who is an exceptional mechanic for diesel engines He confirmed that on diesels with failed flywheels he has see major imbalance issues. On diesels they dont rev fast enough to cause any major issues other than the need to replace the DMF however according to the N&V guy at work an unbalanced 20kg mass on the end of a crank the diameter of the boxster's spinning above 5500 rpm can exert more than 1800 NM of force onto the shaft right at its nearest support point (the first main bearing) This force is way more than the shaft is designed to take and can very easily flex the shaft to the extent that the clutch cover will contact the gearbox housing. A rotating mass contacting something hard at those speeds is enough to bend the shaft permanently leading to further damage. The car has full dealership service history right up to its current milage so the oils etc used are all Porsche recommended items which again makes this scenario even more strange ! We have had a few shaft failures on our turbines here at work due to similar balance issues so its really not surprising that this has happened. I also had work back yesterday from a local porsche specialist saying that he would not have believed my theory up until late last year when he had a GT3RS come in with similar issues. On stripdown of the GT3 they discovered that the crank had bent due to the flywheel/clucth contacting the housing too ! The car is a late 2000 2.7 Boxster, full dealership history 122,000 miles Labour has cost me nothing as its done myself and all the parts required to repair have come to just under £800 The car cost me £6500 and currently would sell at a dealership here for £9995 with the spec and options mine has. So all in Im still not out of pocket really but I really didnt want to be lying under my car after a week of ownership. Ive managed to save a load of cash due to getting teh crank and its cradle via ebay from a car which had a damaged engine but where the crank was saved. It went right down to the last 7 seconds of bidding but I came through and got it paid for straight away :) Assembly will be done in my workshop which is at the rear of the garage its in :) didnt see the point being clean taking it apart as it was all completely dead anyhow ! All the parts are to be cleaned and checked before re assembly and thats happening this weekend :) |
Man you are my new hero. :cheers:
I am sure you will get all this put back together and running like no other Boxster has ever run! :D Cheers! CR |
well thats the plan, but I have just discovered despite paying top money for a quick shipment from Ohio to Scotland that the seller still has not dropped the package of parts off with UPS yet and hes had it since the 30th March !!! :(
Its not looking like Ill have her done this month now as Next weekend is the only time Im free due to work commitments so if that parts dont arrive next week then im stuffed for about 3 weeks :( |
Wow. Sorry that your having to go through all this, but thankyou for the great set of photos.
There's been a good amount of discussion on this forum about clogged/collapsed valve lifters - what state were yours in? -james |
International shipping can be a little tricky at times. Well, you know you learn something everyday and this flywheel imbalance is a new on me. But, crap happens. I would definitely have the heads checked for hairline cracks and also check the cylinders. Go have a pint. :cheers:
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SS
Considering the engine has done 122,000 miles plus the out of balance forces inflicted on the crank assembly, the bores and pistons look in remarkably good condition in the pictures - can you re-use them on the rebuild? Sounds like you havn't stripped the cylinder heads yet, it will be interesting to see the condition of the lifters, valve guides etc. I'm assuming you are using new chain tensioners, timing chains & IMS bearing when you are assembling the engine. Keep us all posted and add pictures as the re-build as it goes ahead - lot of interested parties here...... |
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Yeh, its all a bit odd actually the rest of the engine is fully stripped and EVERYTHING looks to be in perfect condition other than the damage shown in the photos ! I'm planning to reuse pretty much everything that I can and sticking with only using new Bearings, Gaskets and various seals. Basically because everything else looks to be within tolerance and in perfect working order. This plan may change when I begin putting it back together but we shall see. The parts from the USA are now on route so hopefully next weekend will be 2 days of rebuilding the heart of the Boxster ! |
Update
Well thats all the parts cleaned and ready for re assembly. Everything looks to be in fantastic condition other than the obviously bent crank and wiped out bearings LOL
All was looking good for this weekend but the crank is now stuck with UK customs and its looking like it wont be delivered until next week as there stupidly slow over here :( Im gutted as this weekend is my only free one for the next 3 weeks due to work :( Looks like she may not be back on the road until may now :( |
When you getter done we we wanna hear her run. Maybe a u-tube video.
Written message above is a Southern slang, not misspelled. :D |
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