Porsche Approved Oil List
 

Here's a question for the forum: If a brand/grade of oil was on a previous Porsche Approved Oil list (TSB), but is not on the current list, should it not be used solely because it's no longer on the approved list?

Two schools of thought on the subject;

1. Why was it taken off the "approved" list? Reformulation? Loss of approvals (e.g.: ACEA A3, B3, B4)?

2. Does the "list" really mean anything in the first place?

Discussion: Feel free to argue endlessly and without factual support................

The simplest answer is that all the Porsche "approvals" have expiration dates. Oil companies can request extensions.

The more complex answer is that things change. One would hope for proper technical, physics-based reasons.

Then: My Box came with recommendations for synthetic SAE 10W-40, 15W-40 or 15W-50 above 50 degrees F.

10W-40, 10W-30 or 5W-30 for below 50.

API rating SH or SJ. ACEA A3.

Now: It is 0W-40, 5W-40, or 5W-50. (I'm using 5W-40.)

API SH is now listed as "obsolete" on the API website, and even Porsche has approved oils with as low as API SM on the previous list. (I have not checked the new list for API ratings, and won't until my next oil change.)

From my study: API SL should be considered minimum, and SH or SJ preferred. And ACEA A3 or B3.

Additives for engine life like ZDDP have been reduced in recent formulations. Some say because they can damage cat converters and, by inference, the environment.

The current and previous approval list only specifies brands and viscosities. API and ACEA rating require research for each listed oil.

Does The List matter? Not a lot unless your car is under warranty. I do believe it is valid for the viscosity requirements.

Wouldn't bet on that either................

Man, you are my kind of skeptic. :)

I was wondering what you would put in a 60k mile 2001 boxster "s"?
I will use mobile 1 but I don't know what the "## W ##" means. what does the # in the equation stand for?

The"W" stands for "winter" or cold weather viscosity/weight; a "0W-40" oil has "0" in the cold.

I would not use any oil with a "0W" rating, regardless of maker. We only use a 10W-40 full synthetic with ACEA A3, B3, B4 ratings in all our customer's cars, and it gets really cold here....................

Cool, thanks, hey what does the 40 stand for?

The viscosity/weight when hot............

0w-40 M1 is fine for our cars. M1 has put different additives in the oil to replace the ZDDP. (from a tech session at the Porsche Parade in Keystone last week.)

Please look at your warranty book and show me where it requires us to change the oil to maintain the factory warranty.

I missed that tech session because I was working elsewhere, but I did put the same question to the guy manning the Mobil 1 trailer, and he said that the M1 that we use will not break down between 15K intervals. I was concerned about annual oil changes with low annual miles, and he said that as long as our cars were fuel injected, M1 sitting for long periods of no use is no problemo.
It is the carburated cars that sit around, bounce around on trailers, etc, that causes the carb floats to stick or bypass, thereby dumping gas into the oil and contaminating it. But for us late model Porsche folks, especially Boxsters and later 911's it is the 40W (weight and viscosity) that is important in the M1 "european formula" (Porsches, Mercedes and BMW). The guy was a storehouse of knowledge about Mobil1 products for all cars and all the way up to his own Diesel tractor/trailer.
I can't tell for sure, but are these the same mugs used at the Beerfest? :cheers:

You might not be so quick to state that if you looked at UOA data collected over a couple of years.................I’ll reiterate what I said earlier: “I would not use any oil with a "0W" rating, regardless of maker.” Period.

I've used it for more than 100,000 miles with no issues, no oil usage, and perfect oil tests by Blackstone. No emotion or religion, just the facts. Also my lifters do not clatter at start up.

I'm happy that you’re happy. Unfortunately, we typically do about a dozen or so oil changes on customer's Porsche’s a week, and our collected results (and UOA's) do not back up your experience, particularly when you look at the performance of the same grades of oil in the same cars over time. Mobil has reformulated several of their grades as many as three times over the last five years or so, and oil testing has shown the changes have not always been positive ones. Sure, in many cases the oil could still be considered "OK" after low miles; but with many customers going 7,500 to over 10,000 miles between changes, and the results look a lot different. Throw in DE's and/or AX's (particularly in hot weather), and the results began to look absolutely dismal. Yet the same raced/abused cars running a 10W-40 ACEA A3, B3, B4 full synthetic (not a Mobil product) continued to have great UOA's after 10,000 miles and a lot of track time..................

where can i get a list of 10W-40 ACEA A3, B3, B4 full synthetic oils?

thanks.

You'd have either check their websites for tech data sheets (assuming they have them which some do not), or visit a well stocked store and read the backs of some containers. Pay attention to the ACEA ratings rather than the API as ACEA requires the finished product to be tested in order to obtain ratings, while the API has shifted to a "self policing" and “component rating” mode since it became the public relations and marketing arm of the US industry rather than a watchdog............... You can find an ACEA "whitepaper" as a PDF file if you do a Google search, which will explain the meaning for their ratings system, which is very comprehensive.

JP,

from Mobil 1's site i see the following info:

Mobil 1 0W-40 meets key industry and car builder specifications for:

Mercedes MB 229.5
BMW Longlife 01

Porsche Approval List 2002
VW 502.00/505.00/503.01

GM-LL-A-025 (gasoline)
GM-LL-B-025 (diesel)

ACEA A3, B3/B4
API SM/CF



So it "says" it meets the ACEA A3, B3/B4 requirement, but you still don't recommend it?
I value your experience, so I am just trying to figure out what to get other than Mobil 1. Currently I am running Castrol Syntec 5w-40, which also says it meets the spec.

thanks.

Then try Castrol's 10W-40 Syntec, great oil................

Quote: "Then try Castrol's 10W-40 Syntec, great oil................"

Posted by JFP in PA.

So you're saying that the 5 weight in Syntec 5W40 isn't viscous enough to be recommended? (ie it's too much like 0W40?)

No, I'm saying that experience (and a lot of UOA's) has shown the 10W-40 to be better.......the 5w-40 is not bad, just not as good as the 10W-40.....

Yes, probably given by a sales person from Mobil. One of the Parade organizers asked me after the 356 Lit Meet earlier this year to do an oil talk like I've given to many clubs and at national events (I was on vacation, so I couldn't), but I wouldn't have since if I didn't have anything nice to say, so I was better off not saying anything at all. :-) Mobil was a sponsor for the Parade and it was implied that I had to play nice, and everyone knows what I think of the new Mobil 1 formulations.

Like I tell many I speak to, if you insist on running a Mobil 1 product, there's always the M1 10w40 4T Racing motorcycle formulation, that is closest in spec to what would have been used back in the late 90s when these engines were new (in respect to Zn and P). You could even run a 50/50 blend with the m1 0w40 and motorcycle oil if you wanted, that's what's in our Boxster now. Can't wait to see the used oil results.

Charles I have attended one of your seminars and I have sent you one of my UOAs (at your request) that clearly showed that 11,000 miles and 17 months of use of M1 0w-40 was fine.

Sorry Paul, not trying to single you out. Just I get a lot of phone calls re: M1.

Most definitely Paul, your results showed that the 2 yr, 12,000 mi drain interval is certainly doable. I just had another sample of Pentosin 5w40 with 2 years and 7,000 mi still had a TBN of 7.2 (started at 10), with wear levels the lowest I've ever seen from an M96 engine (5w40, SL rated). Driving styles and habits clearly affect drain intervals, no argument there.

I myself have observed a 5,000 mi interval (with changes approximately every 6 months) gets me to a TBN of just under 5, which to some, is the sweet spot of when to change your oil. That's with mixed driving including short drives where the oil isn't given a chance to get hot enough to vapor off the water content. Winter driving also seems to reduce TBN faster and yield increased wear levels. Cars that aren't driven in the winter aren't subjected to the demands placed on the lubricant that otherwise a year round car might see.

Also, forgot to add, oil formulation has a great deal to do with drain interval too. Oils with less Zn and P will form less acid, allowing longer drain intervals. Secondly, the majority of oils, M1 included, use primarily a Ca-based detergent, that is more thermally stable and maintains TBN better, allowing for further longer drain intervals. A lot of the oils I personally like, due to formulation, would require shorter drain intervals accordingly. Good example of how this affects drain interval is Valvoline NSL Racing - they recommend a 600 mi drain interval on a 5 qt capacity, which I've verified through UOA, adjusting drain interval for increased volume.

Charles, there are 2 additional things I have also learned from your web site:

1) Oil filter changes 1/2 way through the oil drain interval

2) Always change the oil after the use of a fuel system cleaners like Chevron's with Techron

Can you please comment a little more about these recommendations, as to why you make these suggestions? Thanks!

Lastly, what is your opinion of Mobil's 5W50??

I used to use M1 exclusively in all my vehicles. Then, they started to get cagey about whether they really were selling a true syn oil. Many (including me) believe they now sell a hydro-cracked version under the M1 brand, rather than the Group 4 formula they had been selling.

Hence, I moved to Red Line.

Who knows the truth or if there is a "truth."

M1 a moving target!
 

I seems like the oil for a 97 boxster has been a moving target as forulations change. What would be the present recommendation for a 97 boxster with 100,000 miles on it?
This would be the first oil change since I bought it.

Thanks for all who respond.

Major draw back I have with Red Line oils is their lack of ACEA ratings (I've learned not to trust API since it switched from being a specification watchdog to a public relations arm of the industry); although I'll give Red Line credit for admitting it, unlike other brands such as RP, who have gotten caught more than once playing games with what ratings they hold...............

Consider a quality 10W-40 full synthetic with ACEA A3, B3, B4 ratings like Castrol Syntec.

I'm also currently using Castrol 5W40 (in an 01 base with 65K on it). I change somewhere between every 5000 and 7500 miles and take it to the track several times a year.

JFP....Would you recommend year round Castrol 10w40 for a car that gets regularly driven in the winter in temps sometimes below O deg F (excluding this last mild winter). Based on your recommendation above my next change (next month) will probably be Castrol 10w40, so I'm curious if I should continue to use it during the winter or go to the 5w40 for the cold weather.

Thanks

Bob

We use 10W-40 year round, and it gets plenty cold here in PA in the winter. If you go to Castrol's website, their tech specs for the 5W and 10W oils are not all that different in the cold; so unless you are going to see sustained -25F (or worse), I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm currently switching most of my cars over to Redline. I don't think it's fiscally prudent for a small nieche oil company to pursue gov. ratings as I imagine the costs associated with obtaining the rating would out weigh the bennefit of having it.

Interesting point of view with regard to the Gov ratings. However, without the independent rating organization to verify the process and standards of the product ... Red Line is not held to anything... just their good name.

I am a believer in the Ratings.

I came across a couple of resources recently that may shed some more light on the question of oil selection -- or perhaps simply throw gasoline on the fire! This link to the current Mobil 1 chart shows Zn and P levels for "SM" rated oils that roughly match the chart on LN Engineering's "Oil FAQ" page. Note also that Mobil 1 0w40 and 5w50 are claimed to carry more Zn and P than most other SM-rated Mobil 1 oils, but M1 15w50 is the Zn & P winner as far as Mobil 1 oils recommended for street-driven cars go. Check out M1 Racing 4T 10w40 -- it's SH rated.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf


The Lubrizol corporation - makers of various chemical products including components used in the manufacture of motor oils - has a really cool comparison tool. It allows the user to compare the performance of one (or more) oil specifications such as API "SM" vs ACEA A3/B4-04. That particular comparison is pretty illuminating, by the way! The king of the hill appears to be the Daimler MB299.51 specification, which is required in the Mercedes-Benz 3.0L V6 turbodiesel engine. Check it out:

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RP/PC/index.html

Actually, I’ll stay with ACEA ratings (specifically A3, B3, B4) over any API rating or manufacturer’s internal specs. ACEA requires that the manufacturer submit the finished product for independent testing. Any formulation change and you have to resubmit to regain the rating. Under ACEA, there are no “approved” ingredients as there are under API; only fully tested and rated finished products

API has gone from being the petroleum industry watchdog and gatekeeper for specifications to becoming the public relations and lobbying arm of the industry. As the result, API specs are now “self policing”, which means the oil manufacturer’s determine what specs their products meet, how they are tested (if they are tested at all), and allow the substitution of components as well as reformulation with out retesting. The number of API specs themselves has grown to a ridiculous number, which have become so broad that they overlap and are hard to decipher.

Because of the lax API “self approval” process, you never really know exactly what you are buying; under ACEA you do. This is also why smaller oil blenders like Red Line and Royal Purple (amongst many others) carry no ACEA ratings; they are expensive and time consuming to obtain, and do not allow any formulation tom-foolery after approval……………

I'm curious why 10w over 5w? IIRC, (i don't have my list in front of me), 5w40 made the Oil TSB but not 10w. The 05w40 syntec is being processed for approval. I'm assuming they made a change to it?

:cheers: Jim

Simple:

• We tried both weights and liked the overall performance and UOA's for the 10W-40 better (parameters like TBN, etc.)

• We also learned to ignore the oil TSB/"approved lists" as there are products that they "approve" which are nearly impossible to obtain, and others that simply do not hold up well, and the basis of what is "approved" and what isn't is suspect..........

Our focus is on what works and keeps the M96 alive, not what Porsche recommends……….

Our focus is on what works and keeps the M96 alive, not what Porsche recommends……….

I think Porsche's recommendations are based on what puts euros in their pockets, hence the Mobil 1 fill.

While we have no basis to assume that is correct; the so-called "approved oil" list has been highly suspect for a long time. Oils that were approved, suddenly no longer are, there is an obvious penchant for very thin (0W and 5W oils) products, way beyond what would be called for due to low ambient temperatures Worst of all, there is no explanation for their selection process; why one product is blessed, while others are not. Add in their obvious inability to set and maintain a consistent maintenance cycle for changing the recommended oils, and you have no real basis for making any decisions. Yet, we are supposed to accept their constantly shifting “dictums” at face value. Sorry, but I cannot……….I’ve been around this marquee far too long and have personally witnessed Porsche make such recommendations, only to see them reversed or totally replaced with something else. Kind of reminds me of Gilda Radner’s character on the old “Saturday Night Live” who would get caught being totally wrong in mid rant, and then suddenly say “Never mind!”

We are therefore left to educate ourselves about what oil parameters are important, run dozens of used oil analysis, collect, and analyze data to determine what seems to matter and what does not…………and stop depending upon Porsche as the font of all knowledge about the M96 engine…..after all, it has had the shortest duration of the number of years (10-12) in service of any of their engines in recent memory, only to be replaced by a totally new design……

Thanks Jfp.

Another thanks JFP.