Hybrids threatened by new gas engine technologies

[Paul_B]

I remember a big fuss about direct injection a few years ago, but then it all went quiet. I thought that, despite better economy and emissions, it made less power than equivalent engines -but maybe I dreamt it

Some interesting background is at wikipedia

I agree with EE3racing -there's only so much gas in the ground and one day we'll have to find something new.

I love gas engines though, so hopefully stuff like this will push that day off a bit..

[Topless]

Originally Posted by roadracer311

They make it sound like it has to be one or the other. There's no reason they couldn't use a direct injection engine in a hybrid.

Yes.
Electric motors are wonderful. They don't weigh much, are about 90% efficient, have a ruler flat torque curve, require no maintenance or repairs for up to 10 years or more. No oil changes, no tuneups, no IMS failures, no nuthin'. An electric powered car can be very very fast.

The problem is energy storage.
A gallon of gas weighs 6lbs. A battery bank with energy storage equal to a gallon of gas weighs about 160lbs. So a 10 gallon range battery weighs 1600lbs. Now fully half of the energy stored is used to drag around those heavy batteries.

Until we have lightweight high capacity batteries the hybrid makes the most sense. An efficient electric drive motor, a battery bank to store energy (a few gallons of gas), and a small efficient gas generator and small gas tank to keep the batteries charged and assist during heavy acceleration. On a long trip you can fill up and keep driving normally.

In the next 5 years I think we will see radical improvements in hybrid technology. More efficient and lighter batteries, better dynamic braking(to reuse energy during breaking that is normally lost to heat), and more efficient gas/diesel onboard generators for extended range. Energy storage is the key.

[pbanders]

I think hybrids don't make sense, when viewed from a larger perspective. Hybrids take a tremendous amount more energy to build (I'm including the energy costs of producing the materials used in the vehicle as well as the assembly process), have a much more complex and potentially polluting end-of-life/recycling path. They also are heavy consumers of materials that are in short supply from sources that employ less than optimal environmental practices (e.g. cobalt for the Li-P or Li ion batteries, mostly mined in the Congo; neodymium for the motor/generator, mined in China, with the supply being manipulated by the Chinese government).

Hybrids also don't make sense to me from a practicality/efficiency perspective, either. Take a look at the story on the previous generation Audi A2:

http://www.audiworld.com/news/01/A2TDI/content.shtml

This amazing 1.2L turbodiesel vehicle had better performance than today's Prius, and delivered better than 3 L/100 km (over 78 mpg) in the EC drive cycle. The optimal efficient and overall low emission, low energy vehicle design seems to be a combination of lightweight, high-strength construction (extensive use of aluminum alloy), modern safe vehicle design (airbags, belt tighteners, stability control, active headrests), high efficiency / low emission 1.2L turbodiesels (with low-sulfur diesel and particulate traps), and roomy sedan/hatchback design.

IIRC, there's a quote in the most recent R&T from a BMW engineer who stated that gasoline vehicles in the EU are a non-factor in sales when compared with diesel vehicles.

Since we can't seem to get vehicles like the old A2 here in the US, when I went out shopping to replace my M3 with a commute car, I ended up with a Honda Fit Sport. Good overall mileage (~32 mpg in commute use for me, 40+ on the highway), cheap price, excellent features and high degree of utility, and it's also a lot of fun to drive. I also looked at the Honda Civic Hybrid, and found it to be expensive (in comparison), toady-looking, and dull to drive. The new Honda Insight Hybrid (sort of a Fit-like Hybrid) looks to be a significant improvement (cheaper, nicer, may even be fun to drive), but I'd rather have seen a Fit with a 1.2L turbodiesel version instead - which is what will probably be marketed in the EU, eventually.

[husker boxster]

And Ford wonders why they're hemorrhaging cash? Do they make DFI available on their Focus so they can compete with Toyota and Honda? No, they put it on their biggest and ugliest vehicle ever trying to boost its sales. They don't get it. I used to bleed Ford blue but I've got no use for the behemoths they're pandering.

And why don't auto manufacturers sell diesels here in the US? I've heard / read various reasons (see below), but they seem stupid to me. Does anyone know why?

Are any of these true?
1. Our refineries are only capable of creating enough diesel for 18 wheeler consumption. We need more refineries and that's not happening. Without a ample supply of diesel, manufacturers aren't going into that market.

2. US regulations are stricter than in Europe, making it less feasible for diesels vs gas engines.

3. GM killed the US diesel mkt with their ill-fated '79 & '80 gas engine-converted-to-diesel which broke cranks at an alarming rate. (They really hurt the mkt but people surely wouldn't remember something that happened 30 yrs ago.)

It seems we read / see / hear about all these great diesels in Europe and there's not a chance they'll come stateside. What a shame. I recently saw a TV ad for a VW diesel. Maybe they'll jump-start the sales here in the US.

[geoff]

I'm surprised nobody pointed out the 2008 Cayennes all have direct injection. I bought an '08 Cayenne S last May. Plenty of power, and from what I can tell, much better mileage than the first gen non-DFI ones earlier. I've been shocked to get a hair over 20 MPG on the highway at 75+ MPH, while the window sticker estimates 19 on the highway. Stop and go commute mileage is usually around 16+, which isn't bad for a very heavy, high performance SUV. No reliability problems so far in the first 12K miles. I'm sold on DFI technology based on this experience

[pbanders]

re: Ford - they have really great versions of the Focus with the latest engine efficiency technology in the EU - but not available here. BMW - only recently is bringing their high efficiency diesel models to the US. VW - only offers a limited selection of their efficient models to the US. I'm sure the same is true of nearly every major player in the EU auto market.