Boxster Killer?
 

Looks like VW is going to produce their mid-engined roadster concept car for public consumption.

The intriguing thing is that they might put in a 3.6L 280hp V6 (think torque!). Or perhaps the 1.8L Turbo with it's vast aftermarket could be used.

It'll probably never compete with the Boxster buyer in real life as Porsche owners aren't exactly looking for 'bang-for-the-buck'. But it should have Boxster-like qualities at a price that's competitive with the Z4's, 350Z's, etc.

If Porsche keeps artificially holding back power for the Boxster, it'll be very difficult to justify.


http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100879

http://www.autoweek.com/files/weekar...-conceptR2.jpg

http://www.autoweek.com/images/news/100879

Wow pretty nice, man I will do a 180...

Oh well life goes on :>)

I saw this car at the Detroit Auto Show last year.

VW has a long way to go with their customer service before I buy another one.

HMM, a 30K r32 which looks like a plain Golf, a $101,000 Phaeton (nice car - tough sell), 30-50K Touaregs (wannabe Cayenne), $27K Beetle Convertibles, TDIs with less fuel mileage than the previous year, no T5 Eurovan... I just don't think VW has a real grasp on the US market.

If they fail to market the Concept R like they botched the R32, Eurovan and the Phaeton it will also be a flop. These 4 vehicles are amazing, but the general public would never know it due to VW's weak advertising and promotion.

David

I think you’re definitely correct in regards to price of the VWs. They are starting to get crazy. If they put the 6 in that R, the price could easily be in the $40K-$45K range, which would then drive it right out of the price range of most of the target audience. My "little" (22 years old) sister and all her friends who are currently driving the VW Cabrio are dying for this car to come out because they think its the new Cabbie, however I don’t think any of them at the moment can throw down $45K for a car.

Is it just me or is this car just a total Boxster rip-off? Most of the other recent roadsters and ect.. have at least tried to disguise themselves (think 350Z, SLK, S2000) but I bet if you took off the badges and started telling people it was the new Boxster, some people would believe you.

I'd definately buy one of those if they were in the 30's range, I have a 95 passat that has been bulletproof since i've owned it and it's still going strong. My 98 boxster on the other hand has given me a few problems but nothing major.

Wheel bearings
Passenger window that makes a grinding noise when going down (still not fixed yet, anyone have any ideas?)
top that screws up when closing every now and then (won't line up)

otherwise i guess the boxster's fun factor is what we all pay for...

p.s. i like the boxster more then the passat....

i kinda like the volkswagen W-12...but at what price!!!!

Looks more like an Audi TT ripoff to me -

Parked next to a boxster this is the chubby girl at the dance.

I don't think it looks like a TT rip-off.. what DOES look like a CHEAP AND NASTY (and I couldn't bold that more) rip-off of the TT is the Daihatsu Copen:
http://www.whatsonbristol.co.uk/revi.../copen_rp1.jpg

As for the VW I think it looks gorgeous, but still, the Boxster is a timeless classic IMHO. The VW looks like a car that might have troubles with the test of time. A bit like the Audi TT, or the Lexus SC340... they are dating fast, while the Boxster looks just as good as it did 7 years ago :cool: :cool: :cool:

"oooh, I want to grow up and own a Volkswagen"

Nope! Can't imagine any little boy I know saying that!

Other car companies can produce whatever they like. It can be faster, get better mileage, and be a fraction of the price as well, but the "oooh" value of owning a Porsche is simply not found elsewhere.

We have nothing to be concerned about.

to me, this car seems like a complete diversion from VW's market -- where are their other "true" sports cars ....ever? They make some cars with sportiness built in, but this car, to me, makes about as much sense as buick developing a mid engine roadster out-of-the-blue. Regardless of how nice it is, it would be a bitter pill to swallow.

VW builds "cute" cars.... they always have (bug, ghia, microbus, rabbit, golf, new beetle, etc). This car is abandoning cute and trying to hold on to sexy -- and unfortunately porsche has a patent on it. :)

i have been told that porsche "de tune" the boxster as so it doesnt compete with the 996 sales. They wont ever race the boxster as if it races well they will see a drop in 996 sales..

if porsche wanted to they could really make the boxster a hell of alot quicker.. but at the end of the day no matter what the power issue is the thing that the boxster will always have compared to other rivals is a porsche logo and exellent re-sale value.

it wasnt that long ago in january 03 when the tv show "topgear" says ..

stuff investing money in the bank, buy a boxster, enjoy it.. then when you want to, cash it in and get just as much..

Excellent resale? Maybe in Italy...but in the US depreciation is not exactly stellar.

The Porsche logo only goes so far. Sooner or later the competition catches up. Many great cars have fallen by the wayside, both from Porsche and other makers due to competition and/or lack of interest.

How's the 997 doing? Looking on ebay, there are cars going for less than msrp and completed listings that never met reserve. Usually, new models of enthusiast cars go for way over sticker. I've seen a few 996 owners jump ship over to the new C6 Corvette. If the new Boxster doesn't garner enough interest, guess what's going to happen?

I don't want to be too critical of the Boxster but I would like to see it evolve and last for more than a couple of model generations.

I wonder about that whole "The boxster would take sales from the 996/997" thing. I mean, they are different cars, even considering the cabrio version of the 996. Though essentially we all buy the cars for the driving pleasure, the 996 is more practical in some small aspects, while the Boxster is a true roadster, as they say. And if Porsche wants to keep up that stigma of having created the "true roadster," they need to back it up. Even if the Boxster had another 100 horsepower, I'm sure there would still be people that buy the 911 for the fact that its a 911, and there would be people that buy the Boxster for their own reasons.

There shouldn't have to be a market for upgrading the engines in the Boxster...its sad! Porsche is walking a very fine line when their SUV can accelerate faster than their claimed "true enthusiast roadster."

I guess we ought to look at the corporate mission, and see if we're blowing smoke, which I fear we are. I think the downfall of the Porsche marque might be the coupe version of the Boxster. Personally, I think that's going too far, and will truly make the boxster the "poor man's porsche" in the eyes of the public, and will make it the bastard son of the 997.

(don't worry, I love my boxster to death, I'm only providing fuel for discussion!!!)

good points....

when i posted that i was speaking from a uk point of view, they hold good value here...

i also agree porsche need to do something fast as the boxster has seen porsche safe into the 20th century but what about the future?

Is this a choice a VW or Porsche? I don't think so!

The dash is chrome!


whilst driving on a sunny day (w/ top down)....
"Oh My Goddess! I can't see! I can't see! "

***CRASH!***

As a long time Porsche admirer, and recent Boxster owner, I have a few observations. I love my 97 Boxster, it's the best looking, best handling roadster out there, but in the current hypercompetitive market, I would hesitate to purchase one new. The Honda S2000 is probably an equally good car, compard to a 2004 Box, but it costs about $9,000 less. In SCCA class B Stock autocross, there are about 10-12 S2000s to every Boxster, and the Hondas have won the nationals for the last 3 years. Given, that's a rather specialized test, but still relevant.

Likewise, the 350Z costs about $36,000, and has 287 HP! It may have cheap, nasty interior, problems with front tire wear and some other shortcomings, but it's clearly more bang for the buck. If Porsche hopes to compete with the Japs and the other competition, they need to recognize the moving nature of the target, and the fact that the Boxster (without the cachet of the 911) needs to be price competitive.

In terms of "just" price, Porsche should be more expensive if for no other reason than production numbers. Worldwide Porsche sales (all models) this year will be in the tens of thousands range (approx half Cayennes too) while Honda and Nissan sales will be in the millions. So does it really surprise you that there is a 10:1 S2K to Boxster ratio at SCCA? Your Boxster has a lot more Porsche overhead money in it then some guy's Honda or Nissan, its also far better looking :D

One of the things that I really like about my Boxster is that in terms of the automotive world there really aren’t all that many of them (or us owners). I don’t want a car that everybody else has; I don’t want to blend in. If I wanted a "bang-for-the-buck" car instead of my car I would have purchased a Corvette Z06, which actually had an identical sticker price to my Boxster. I just don’t think I would have enjoyed the 'Vet nearly as much. I drive a Pontiac Firebird as my everyday driver and I looked at the 'Vet then looked at my 'bird and thought, man its basically the same car with some fancy crap bolted on. However, the Z06 does have a heads-up-display.

Does anyone remember when the Boxster was introduced and it was supposed to be the $30,000 Porsche to pull in a new generation? I think the fact that it's been so popular while pushing its way to $50-$60,000 is pretty good testament to the value and quality of a Porsche.

It's definitely a relative value to buy one used now, though. Less than $30,000 gets you a good selection of 2000-2001 2.7 Boxsters with 30k or fewer miles. They don't depreciate much from that point, though. New cars like the 350Z and S2000, even with more HP or other features, are still shopped against USED Boxsters - not new ones. The Porsche is still what people prefer.

This is so true. A colleague of mine purchased a 350Z after shopping around for quite some time. He's ALWAYS wanted a Porsche but couldn't stretch his budget. When I got my 6 year old Boxster we went for a drive and he was kicking himself he didn't save and stretch that little bit more - even though his car was brand-spanking new :eek:

I am not sure Porsche HOPES to compete with the Japs. Porsche is a luxury brand. If you look on the home page of this site, it says "FRANKFURT, Germany - Luxury carmaker Porsche AG said Tuesday it plans to launch the much-anticipated new version of its iconic 911 sports car across Europe on July 17." The Japs HOPE to compete with Porsche, offering a product with more gadget, more HPs and whatever...Brand positionning and pricing are totally different, and so are the customers in my opinion. GUCCI does not HOPE compete with GAP. Porsche high-end 911s are prices against the Ferrrari Modena. The "regular" 911 against the Maserati etc. Why would the Boxster need to be price against Nissan? On top of that, the Boxster is a unique product offering with it's engine layout. "More bang for the buck" isn't only a HP/$ ratio.

Its an interesting argument. As has been argued about in the past, the Boxster was released largely as a way for Porsche to make money in sales to fuel the production of its higher-end cars, and to continue R&D to make their vehicles that much better.

Although we all must agree on some level that Porsches are superior vehicles, you gotta consider that if Porsche loses sales to these other marques, that could hurt the Porsche name. Not now, and maybe not next year, but in 5 or 10 years, if they lose enough sales, we won't keep seeing the new 911 series blowing away all competition.

So we SHOULD be worried that these other carmakers are coming up with items that will woo the market to buy their cars. For people that are looking to get a fast car, even a car that could "beat a porsche," (as so many people seem to want to do), there are many options out there.

For the enthusiast--like most of us--there isn't a choice, nothing can touch a porsche in our minds. But remember that the general public with enough money to buy a porsche doesn't always understand what that means, and to be frank, a lot of them don't really care.

I could keep going, but I'll stop for now... :-)

If you look at Porsche AG's financials, they are beating every year their records...Ok, the Cayenne added to their income...but still, their sales are doing ok. They have just introduced two new models (997/987) and they have no reason to change that positionning...

I owned a new 250Z Track model before owning my 2001 boxster S and there is NO comparison in ANY way of a Nissan and a Porsche!!!!!!!!

VW quality????

I don't think so Tim!

Wait a minute. There are between 8 - 9,000 S2K's for US in each production year. Boxster, began production in '97, outnumbers the S2K on the road. If it is exclusivity that you seek, you bought the wrong car. :D

Despite that, the number of S2K's in my local auto-x and SCDA track events far outnumbers the 911's and Boxsters combine, though not quite as drastic as the 10:1 ratio aforementioned for the SCCA. I'll leave it to you to figure out why that is. I can tell you one thing though: all S2K drivers can drive a stick; no bimbo-blonde, trophy-wife, blvd-cruisers there. :)

As for overhead, S2K is the only other RWD car in the company and it shares zero parts w/ its siblings. Everything from its x-bone frame to its mid-engine layout to its interior is designed from scratch... with great success. They were also built - hand-assemble, I might add - in a Japanese plant dedicated to only the S2K and NSX. So they are not exactly saving much money from labor or shipping either.

Here is a rule on price.

Supply AND demand.

It IS that simple.

When someone asks what kind of car I drive, I say "Porsche"....that's it.

Who wants to say "Honda, but it's a S2000, know what that is? It doesn't share components with other hondas, and it outnumbers the other cars at my SCCA"

or "Volkswagon, but it's not a wagon, it's a roadster...I mean it's not a bug or a jetta it's a mid-engine roadster". I feel worse for the Phaeton folks, they can't even say what price they paid to make it more credible.

I never hear a Porsche owner qualify his purchase. There are other nice cars, but in other ways.

That's OK b/c not everyone needs to be a "brand-whore." You see, some people enjoy a car for what it truely is, not how it reflects upon you. Those are the people that I'd like be associated with and be friends with. Sadly, your notion typifies many sports car owners nowaday. :cheers:

LOL Com'on Rich, you know that's fairy-tale textbook stuff that they teach to freshmen. We all know the bean-counters and marketing folks predetermined the product, supply, and price, and then hope their predicted demand will follow suit. Your concept holds true if demand exceeds supply/price. If demand is below supply, the "sticky price" effect had cause a company to go bankrupt (a la Porsche in late early 90's) and still price won't reach an equilibrium w/ supply and demand.

The 987 and 997 are truely great cars, and will no doubt bolster Porsche's brand name and pocket book. I hope I don't come across as a Porsche basher. :cheers:

Whoa there. Let's not get all high and mighty calling people brand whores. Just go to the S2K website and do a search on "boxster". You see people ragging on the Boxster and claiming the superiority of the S2K (facts...Boxster < S2K < Boxster S). I'd say that's a bit of brand whoring on their part...no?

And your claims of every S2K driver knowing how to drive stick...that's a bit of bull**************** pride. And seeing more S2K's at the autocross? BFD. Maybe more Boxster owners prefer the track to driving around in parking lots. :rolleyes:

Here's the bottom line...the S2K is being discontinued even with a modest price of $30K. Meanwhile, the Boxster continues to sell. Maybe Honda should've came out with automatics so they can continue to sell cars. Interestingly, what are the 2 cars that don't sell well at Honda? NSX and S2K. Does Honda not know how to make a sports car? ;)


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i use to own a 350z touring, got friends who owns Z's, S2000, 996, M3's, WRX and so fourth. as you can see its a variety of cars and we all love what we drive. we all sit and bash each others cars for fun and get a kick out of it. but at the end of the each bashing nights with a cold one in our hands, we always end up complimenting each others cars for what they stand for and what it is capable of $ for $. so i dont think when we say "i drive a Porsche", we are brand-whores, we are the furthest thing fromit. we, box owners are probably the most loyal, anal, maticulous, automibile owners out there. we're just proud of what we have and drive even after spending ton of $$ for litronics, clear tail lights, MAF, the list goes on. but most importantly, all of my friends, after complimenting each others cars, they say, "shoot, i would rather drive your porsche anyday".
do you (No Name) think i will ever tell my friends who drives a kick ass wrx, S2000, Supercharged Z's that will do circles around my box that "I would rather have your car anyday"....????
i dont think that day will come anytime soon cuz i am already planning for a 2007 987. so buddy, you gotta love what you drive, dont matter if it is hand made, separate plant, etc, etc,...
I got a 2000 box, 3x black, been rear ended, but i still love that thing like you would not believe....... it completes me. :cheers:

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest Boxster owners are brand-whores.

But you got to admit, anyone who says this:
"When someone asks what kind of car I drive, I say "Porsche"....that's it.

Who wants to say "Honda, but it's a S2000, know what that is? It doesn't share components with other hondas, and it outnumbers the other cars at my SCCA"

... certainly does sound like one.


Current MY00 S2000 owner
MY05 BS owner in 6/05 :)

mid-engine?
http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/H...ges/Engine.jpg

Read enough on the S2K board and you’ll find at least 5 praises for every 1 criticism for the Boxster. The criticisms are generally about the cost, not the car itself.

FYI The SCDA events I mentioned are road course track events. They run on NHIS, LimeRock, and Watkins Glen. Just about everyone there – F-guys, P-guys, Vette-guys – are great people and a joy to chat with. Maybe most Porsche folks race within their own PCA circle, I don’t know.

S2000 is not being discontinued. I don’t know where you learn that rumor from. They sell just about as many units as Boxsters each year even without AT. They are not the hot items they once were, but they are doing OK.

Yes, mid-engine. I knew someone would bite. :D I'll give you a chance to redeem youself if you can explain why that is. :D

You call it mid-engine because the engine is behind the axle. Everyone else calls it front engine because it is front engine. Every review and write-up of the car I have read describes it as front engine rear wheel drive.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=33&article_id=7579

According to the photo, the engine is fully behind the front wheels. So on a technicality, it's a mid engine automobile. Just not where we Boxster owners think it belongs.

Bet it doesn't take the twisties as well as a boxster either.

Read enough on the S2K board and you’ll find at least 5 praises for every 1 criticism for the Boxster. The criticisms are generally about the cost, not the car itself.
Your ratios are screwed. It's more like 5 to 1 against. I've read s2ki plenty.


FYI The SCDA events I mentioned are road course track events. They run on NHIS, LimeRock, and Watkins Glen. Just about everyone there – F-guys, P-guys, Vette-guys – are great people and a joy to chat with. Maybe most Porsche folks race within their own PCA circle, I don’t know.
Exactly. You don't know. Yet that didn't stop you from insinuating that there's less Porsches running due to having more poseurs. And flat out claiming that there's "no blonde bimbos" driving S2K's, again insinuating owners are poseurs. Guess what...? Nobody F'in cares. Bottom line is the Boxster S is a superior car to the S2K. Bimbo or not.


S2000 is not being discontinued. I don’t know where you learn that rumor from.
I guess I know your car better than you. That "rumor" is mentioned more often than not on s2ki. Why don't you give me the info on the new gen S2K then? Surely they have something in the works? However, I'm sure you won't be able to produce anything. The '06 model year, if there is one, will be exactly like every previous gen. That's forever in Japanese car cycle. I'm guessing the NSX is the longest running generation ever. Even the Corvette has changed since then. OUCH! :rolleyes:


They sell just about as many units as Boxsters each year even without AT. They are not the hot items they once were, but they are doing OK.
Porsche is a boutique car maker. They deal with low volumes by having higher prices. An S2K that only sells in the 20K volume range at $30K is a failure for a manufacturer like Honda.

And by the way, stop pretending you own a midengined car. A "front-midengine" is a marketing term. The only real midengined configuration that matters is when the engine is behind the driver.

Every S2K owner I've met has had this cocky attitude like 120hp/L means something. :rolleyes: And every one that I've ran has gotten their ass kicked, even in my old E36 M3.

Oh, but the S2K is a great car. I'm not trying to Honda bash. ;)




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I know what other people call it, but would you agree with it? S2000 is as much an FR as the Boxster is an RR. What distinguishes them from either spectrum is the fact that both cars’ engine weight is kept between the F/R axles - thus mid-engine - and its advantage is just as equivalent for both cars. You’ll find the more studious car magazines (Car, EVO, etc.) do cknowledge that the S2000 does have a MR layout but stuck with the FR moniker.

Fwiw, S2000 actually has slightly better weight distribution (51/49) than Boxster. So, RandallNeighbour, your bet has just a good a chance on a Russian Roulette. ;)
Then again, according to SCCA “parking lot” racing…