Speeding Ticket - The Fight Begins
 

I got a ticket a while back and decided to fight it. I thought I would share my results for those who were interested. First, a little background...

It's 12:30 at night on a crispy Jan Saturday. I'm going south on the 405 towards the mountains to Santa Monica (it was freezing outside, I remember reading the temperature). Right after crossing the 101, I get slowed down with everyone else by a cop-car, he stopped all southbound traffic to move some suspects and a white SUV off the freeway. I was on the front row of the stopped traffic. We ended up waiting for 30 minutes for them to get the suspects off the road. There were only 2 cop cruisers there, and a couple cops, they had their hands full.

They finally let traffic begin to go, and I start up mildly spiritedly. I get up to speed, and perhaps a little extra (told the gf I was going to be home already, so I was really late). I eventually outran the other cars behind, and crossed over the top of the hill. I kinda felt really visible at that point, and thought it might be wise to be going the speed limit as I entered Santa Monica, so I slow down (there were one or two other cars ahead that had come on the freeway from entry-ramps). And just as I'm about going the speed I want to, I see another pair of headlights crest the hill at least half a mile away and barrel down towards me at crazy speed. Turns out it's a cop.

I was going the speed limit, so I just continue on my merry way. They get on my tail and pace me for a few minutes before they finally put their lights on. I was pretty sure they didn't have radar or laser on me tho, I didn't trip any trap. And they couldn't really pace me earlier accurately because they never really had line of sight or a consistent speed with me for any length of time. He gave me a ticket for going 90 in a 65, but no word on how they determined it, he was just guessing.

So I showed up to the prelim thing and requested a trial by declaration (write-in trial). I think the best strategy here is to fight it on the lack of evidence, he doesn't have anything substantial to prove my speed, and it was night so he doesn't even know what car he was after. I was going the speed limit when they saw me, they have no case. Plus, the ticket indicates I was speeding over a 5 mile stretch beginning at the 101 and ending at the street I eventually pulled over on, which is just silly.

I'll keep you guys updated on how things turn out. Any suggestions?

-David

It sounds like B.S. I don't blame you for fighting it. Can you ask a cop to see the speed on his gun when you get pulled over? I had a similar situation about a mo ago but he gave me a warning so I didn't fight it.

Yeah that's messed up, definately fight it, hopefully he either won't show up or the judge will have to go with you for lack of proof. Same thing happened to a biker friend of mine, he fought it and the ticket was dropped. Good luck.

I don't think trial-by-declaration will give you the outcome you desire. The trooper can put anything he wants in his written report which you never see and is not subject to cross-examination. On the basis of two written reports (guess which one receives subjectively heavier weighting), without a sympathetic presence to influence the outcome, it's too easy for the Judge to make his two-second ruling and fill the state coffers.

I'd wait for your guilty verdict and and then submit a form TR-220 for a new trial (which is just that...new). You can still go to traffic school should you get a second guilty verdict.

My thought on this situation, right or wrong, is if they're going to get my $250-400, then I'll make them earn it by taking up as much court and police witness time as possible to incur a financial wash or at best a loss for "the man". You've already taken a step in this direction as the trooper will have to submit a written report, which I'd imagine is about as much fun as it sounds.

I've heard good things about trial-by-declaration. The plus is, unlike asking for a court date, the police aren't paid overtime for writing a letter. Thus, a lot of trial-by-declaration requests go unanswered or unefforted. A friend of mine has gotten out of two tickets that way, and to be honest I'm not good in interrogation.

I made the actual stop as uneventful as I could. I just hope the cop doesn't feel like he needs to clamp down hard on this because it of the porsche-factor or whatever speed he thought I was really going (he gave me that whole 'I'm gonna be nice and only make it for 90' line).

Funny thing, after he almost comes off the road trying to catch up to me (doing 60 at the time), he complains not for my safety, but rather.. "Do you know we can get killed trying to chase guys like you at the speed we were?!".

I think there's a lesson there officer...

-David

I agree with SD987. Although I have not had a ticket where I live now, knock on wood, where I grew up (central Illinois), the troopers/cops scheduled their court dates on their days off for OT. If you are going to pay anyway, in any form, make it worth your tax dollars. Depending on your work schedule, fight it. At least you know where your tax dollars are going.

David, so you were speeding and now you are just going to deny & fight it? I hope your strategy works. Just how fast were you going?

You were speeding. You knew it. You got caught. Why not just pay the ticket, and be done with it?

On the few tickets I received, they always said how they determined my speed, either "radar" or "vascar". It was a required field to fill out on the ticket form.

I fought a ticket in court once, and lost, but they did reduce my fine to the equivalent of doing 60 in a 55 (and no points on my record).

Hmm bmussatti, I think of it like this.

LAPD: "We got you. We saw a puff of smoke, and we got you. We saw you fire your fully registered and licensed weapon, so we're hauling you in for murder. We don't know if you actually shot someone, but hey it's a fancy gun, so we're gonna say you shot a couple people, why not right? We can't prove anything, we don't have a body, but you know you shot someone, that's enough for us."

Imagine if everything worked like this..

-David

You did not answer my questions.

Pay the fine, and move on. You were speeding...right. Ya got caught. Sorry.

More than likely they paced you with a cruiser with a calibrated speedometer. You can fight the ticket, but they'll probably win the case.

I really like SD987's approach of wasting as much Police Officer time as possible to get even. The only thing that I would add is ********************ing about slow Police response the next time your family needs help, caused by a whole city full of self rightous jerkoffs doing the same thing.

ohh....... quite now...... ***waiting for chair to be randomly thrown so fight can break out***

If my refusal to submit feebly to the stacked deck of highway enforcement makes me a self-righteous jerkoff, then so be it.

In the meantime I'm trying to mentally reconcile your concern for your brethren in law enforcement while simultaneously using another thread to promote the arming of the general populace with weapons that are well beyond what could be considered the need for self-protection. I'm sure that gun-toting civilians make a cops life easier.

I love it when the police give you a ticket, they are jerkoffs!!! Even when you admit you were speeding. But hey, they are just wasting your time, until you crash, and kill someone, or a motorcycle rider pulls out... or maybe...they were busy rescuing people, like 9/11.... arresting some innocent murderer...etc. So many liberals have so many opinions, but do nothing to help others except B$tch and complain about everything..boohoo!!! Pay the ticket and go change your maxipad!!

Hi,

Indignation, especially when you were admitedly at fault, isn't likely to get you anywhere.

The Courts often go easier on those who are contrite and show some remorse for their actions.

Many states have alternatives to going to Court. Here in MN, you can see a Traffic Control Officer (an Officer of the Traffic Court) and ask for a CD - a Continuance for Dismissal. This is a time consuming task - usually you wait 2-3 hrs. to see a TCO, so many don't take advantage of it and simply pay the Fine.

A CD is almost always granted and while you must plead Guilty and pay a fine (most often reduced), your Citation is granted a Continuance for 1 year. If during that time, you get no other Moving Violations, the Citation is dismissed. But, if you do get another Moving Violation, both that Citation and this one fall on you full force.

The advantage is You pay a one-time Fine, but no record or points are put against you, so you avoid paying that Continuing Fine by your Insurance Co.

I was once on a CD and it actually helped me avoid another Citation. Pinched for Speeding, I explained to the Officer that if she did Cite me, this existing CD would fall on me and since I was only 5 MPH over the limit, this didn't seem fair. So she said she would cite me for driving w/o Proof of Insurance (which I had in the car) instead. But, a Citation for no Proof of Insurance is recinded if you present your Proof of Insurance to a License Clerk within 48 Hrs, so effectively I got no Citation.

Check into these, but if you're counting on the Court to show you some leniency, I might suggest adjusting both the approach and the attitude to work a little better in your favor. Good Luck!...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Nobody likes to get speeding tickets, period. They are expensive and could cost you big points on your driving record. But, you really have to consider the statistics for those involved in severe accidents because of speed.

If you were really doing 90 in a 65 mph zone and the government satisfied its burden of proof during the traffic trial, you could be looking at some substantial fines and penalties in California.

He may not have been pacing you at all. While following you he may have been running your plate to see if you had any warrants. The actual speed measure may have taken place before you saw him and from another vehicle or aim spot. Usually they have one guy shooting an several chase cars. As Jim said, if you are respectful, well dressed and show up to court they usually reduce it.

First, let me set the record straight. I wasn't calling you a jerkoff...at least not on purpose. My words were ill chosen. I sincerely apologize for the implication. It was entirely my fault. More than occasionally, my colorful verbiage gets me in trouble.

My only point was that wasting an Officer's time in traffic court keeps them from doing other, more important things, and further burdens an already overburdened system.

If you look at the other thread, you will see that I have recommended nothing that is more than a homeowner should possess for home protection. In fact, I attempted to steer folks away from all the exotic crap they were talking about. My original post was aimed at providing insight into the successful, layered protection of one's home. Since the thread had turned to weaponry, and a lot of the posts contained erroneous and dangerous information, I posted, not about rocket launchers and all that garbage, but about successfully surviving an armed encounter. It's a subject that I fortunately or unfortunately know an awful lot about.

I consider all of you my friends, and when I saw that you were receiving information that, if followed, would clearly get you killed, I felt compelled to step up. If you look at the other post again, I never took a stance one way or the other as far as having weapons for home protection. Judging by the makes, models and pictures of all the members handguns, that decision had clearly already been made. My only intention was to provide information to assist my friends in surviving a gunfight. It is easy to buy a gun and spout off about what you'll do if those MFers ever dare come to your house. It's a completely different ballgame when you are engaged in an armed encounter. I have been on both sides of the gun, and I'm here to tell you, when the **************** hits the fan, your tactics had better be good, or you will become very, very dead. All the bravado in the world will not save you. Despite what I consider to be the best training in the world, I still managed to get myself shot four times (same incident, four rounds). I've also had the painful honor of carrying several of my colleagues to their final resting places.

My intended contribution to the other thread was that if you're going to do it, do it right. I hate to keep picking on C.J., but if any of these guys think they're going to storm downstairs in the middle of the night with a .22 short and duke it out with some greenbean, we'll all lose a friend.

Again SD, I apologize for my ill chosen words.

They did their job, nobody is questioning the value of that. I just want them to have a better case than a rough guestimation taken at night from at least 3/4ths a mile away, without radar or laser, and no other cars as a point of reference before they slap a number on a ticket and tell me to pay up.

-David

I think it's quite naive to believe the Highway Patrol would start doing "better" things if the public wouldn't contend their traffic citations -- after all, they are "Highway Patrol" and an important revenue generator for the State.

-- peer

I think the issue here is "Due Process", something every patriotic American, left and (especially) right leaning, should hold in high esteem and demand from our justice system. Having committed or even confessed to ( among friends) an offense is not enough to be punished. Confronting our accusers (even the state or LE) and demanding a burden of proof be legitimately met is one way that we as citizens most effectively exercise our freedoms. Remember that unexercised freedoms are the first ones taken. ( or something like that)

That is all very nice.

However, the man knows he commited the crime and is trying to worm out of paying.

Lets call a spade a spade. This is not a constitutional law issue nor is the constitution being threatened.

Sometimes, it is just cool to fess up, suck it up and move on, like a man.

If you can't do the time ...................

Hi,

I agree, no freedoms are at stake here. The Lister was not restricted from exceeding the Speed Limit, he was free to do so, but, under penalty of Law which is what's happening now.

No one likes Speeding Tickets, which has been stated. And I don't even fault someone for trying to fight it because of the lingering effects of increased Insurance costs, etc.

But, there's a limit to how far one should go . Overtaxing the system, which infringes on all of us who weren't pinched, isn't, IMHO, the way to go - keep the Nukes in their Silos for something bigger than a Speeding Citation.

Go ahead, fight it, that's your right, though in this instance I won't be surprised to see that you haven't altered the outcome. But, you did it, so quit whining about it and trying to gain sympathy from the Board...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Innocent until proven guilty....

I was bringing my Boxster through southern Utah last October and had a cop flash his lights at me, despite the fact I was doing 6-under the limit on a beautifully clear day. Some cops just assume because it's a Porsche that you must be speeding.

The burden of proof is on them, though....if neither the conditions of the roads or the circumstances involved allowed them to get an accurate radar reading, then they've got nothing. If they paced you while you were doing the speed limit, I see no fault there either.

The guy knows he was speeding. This does not seem to be in doubt. Fault is not in dispute here as far as I can see.

I guess SD987 is in the wrong place if he was looking for a sympathetic shoulder to cry on.

Adam, that made about as much sense as your previous 1,839 posts...I wasn't the one who got the ticket or was looking for sympathy.

I swear, if half the forum learned how to read as well as they type we could do great things.

And if you're still traumatized about me stereotyping your dad as a gold-chain wearing wife-beater in that other thread, then I apologize. Give it some time, you'll get over it.

Grizz, no problem, we're good.

I AM going to stop wearing those gold chains, I swear I am.

:D

Oops, I guess that's what happens when you drink mass quanities of beer on St. Pattys day, lol. No hard feelings we're cool. For some reason I thought you were the original lister....guess it wouldn't hurt to check next time ;)

i say you print this thread out and bring it to the judge, youll be fine :D

I agree that the onus is on the Government to prove its case, but remember that whether done in writing or in person on the stand, David will swear under penalty of perjury, to tell the truth about the incident. Several posts in this thread have complained that law enforcement doesn't play fairly in its highway enforcement or during the adjudication process. Somehow, however, we think it's O.K. for David to not play by the rules. David has already told us that he was speeding. We know that to be the truth because he told us it was. In the 986 forum's version of court, the Highway Patrol must come to court, tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and accused gets to lie his ass off? Then the onus is on the Government to prove its case? Is that how it works? Apparently I must have slept through some of my classes.

Very well said, Griz!

My last speeding ticket was in 1971. I was speeding, I knew it and deserved the ticket. It never ocurred to me that I should fight it, in that I KNEW I was guilty!

It did not even ocur to me that I could beat the rap because MAYBE the cop wasn't PERFECT in the way that he caught me. He caught me AND I was speeding. I paid the ticket and moved on.

Candidly, had I decided to fight that ticket, I would have been a hypocrite. If you believe in the rule of law, don't cry if it bites you in the butt.

Human's are fascinating, they can rationalize anything if it is what they want to believe.

Frankly, I am so tired of these ticket threads.

My advice, if you were speeding, don't post here asking for information about how to beat the ticket. I waill simply delete the thread.

Now, if you were NOT speeding (and you know who you are!) then, ask for help in proving your case. That is an ethical and principled way to act.

To you others, hire a shark lawyer, pay the fees and leave us alone.

Oh, one last point.

Well, you see there was this pedophile who had raped and murdered a young child.

He frequented a Porche forum and he posted, stated that he DID commit the crime but he was pretty sure the cops did not do his arrest in just the pefect/legal way.

He was asking the readers of the forum for some help in how to beat this rap. After all, his RIGHTS maybe had been violated and he thought the readers of the forum would all gather around and help him fight the good fight.



Well, .................................................?

O.K., let me get this straight. You're saying that David should go to traffic court, allow the prosecution to put on the Government's case, and then sit there like a mushroom so that he doesn't perjure himself?

Yeah, David, do that. Let me know how it works out for you. :rolleyes:

Or better yet, actually plead the fifth in traffic court. Classic.

Children should be taught ...
 

not to commit felonies. I see a basic problem with being responsible and understanding that acting irresponsibly will result in someone holding you accountable. In fact, I see many parents do not teach their children about responsible behavior. (I work at a University)

I hate these speeding posts and wish they would be removed. If you decide to speed and get caught. Man up and be responsible for your behavior. You were speeding and he caught you. I guess it is easier for some folks to look at their faults in the mirror than others.

You of course, fail to see the point.

This guy has legal rights and he is free to exercise them.

He can ask for help from us to dodge what he did.

We are free to advise him to suck it up and do the time.

This has nothing to do with second amendment rights.

If you think so, well, you are free to do that to.

Perhaps David should hire DB to represent him in his case.

Then, perhaps JUSTICE will be served.

Let's be civil everyone, this is only a discussion. I'm accused of breaking one rule in a set of rules. Another rule exists on how broken rules are properly detected, I believe that rule was broken as well by the cop. It just so happens an additional rule in this set of rules allows me to fight my penalty because of something like that. I think the outcome of this fight would be informative to people here, that's why I posted this topic.

I'm not claiming innocence, I'm claiming due process. I'm not trying to absolve myself of the murder of a child, I'm trying to get out of paying my insurance company excess cash for being accused of a moving violation without enough evidence. That and that alone.

A spade is just a spade.

-David

David,

You do have a rather large problem here because your ticket is for doing 90 in a 65 mph zone. That is 25 mph over the limit and a rather hefty fine and points on the your license, and possibly license suspension in some states. Now, I don't want to get into the whole fight vs. fess-up argument, but often if you go to court you may have your fine and/or citation reduced where the impact on your insurance is much less. The state is happy as they still get their money and you're somewhat happy that your liability is reduced. It may even be worth it to get a lawyer on this one.

As an ex-cop, let me suggest that there might be another side to the story. I can't say for certain in California, but in Oregon a citation could be written for something other than speeding if the speed could not be determined - such as Careless Driving. So who knows how he is claiming to have gotten the 90 MPH reading? I agree with the posts that question the logic of going to court and lying to show how unfairly you were treated.

My theory would be to use the declaration system and simply say that you had sped up for a short distance, but slowed before the cop was anywhere near you. The trouble with that logic of course is why would he have stopped you if he hadn't seen you speeding? Trust me, he didn't stop you because you were driving a Porsche. He saw a lot of other sports cars that day and probably left most of them alone.