Copper like sludge in oil pan + copper/lead UOA - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

trackster986 · 07-06-2023, 08:03 AM

I have an 01 Boxster S 6 speed that I use mostly as a track car for HPDE and Autocross. I drive it on the street every so often, but its mostly run hard on the track, and oil changed immediately after each track day. I know you really can't draw too many conclusions from one UOA, but the elevated copper and lead concern me. I know the silicon is probably from resealing the pan, or at least a large contributor to it. The engine runs strong, doesn't smoke, doesn't really make noise that I can tell. It doesn't use oil. No coolant or fuel mixed in the oil. The oil cooler was bad, and I just replaced that, it was leaking oil from the o-rings, so maybe it's possible to leach some copper, but I don't know. I've been running Mobil 5W50 A40 on the track. I currently have mobil european 5w40 in it, also A40.

This was a UOA after a 2.5 hour track day (five 30 min sessions, and about 350-400 street miles there and back). It was definitely driven hard on the track, 3-6k rpm the whole time. There was some kind of copper or zinc colored sludge on the pan. I didn't really see any metal in filter, I have an LN spin on adapter. I do have a magnetic drain plug as well and there was only just a super light dusting on it, no more than usual. Anyone have any thoughts on what this might be? There wasn't elevated iron in the sample, I have no idea where the lead would come from, I just used regular 93 octane on the track. I've driven it about 200 miles on fresh oil since this and its been fine, but I plan to change the oil again and send it off for another UOA. I hate to be a pessimist, but is this an impending sign of rod or main bearing failure? I want to drive it some more to get a better idea on the next UOA, but I also don't want to drive it further if it will end up toasting the engine more than it already may or may not be. One cam bank has deviation out of spec 7.2degrees, other was close at 5.8. There were a few plastic bits in the pan, so for sure it needs variocam guides.

You can see the sludge in the pic, and also some shiny residue on the bottom end. I dropped the pan prior to the track and day this oil analysis. I would think if that amount of copper was in the pan, and it was bearing related, this engine would have shat itself long ago. If anyone has thoughts or insight, I definitely want to hear! Thanks!

trackster986 · 07-06-2023, 08:05 AM

edit - dbl post

trackster986 · 07-06-2023, 08:06 AM

Bottom end pic

JFP in PA · 07-06-2023, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackster986

I have an 01 Boxster S 6 speed that I use mostly as a track car for HPDE and Autocross. I drive it on the street every so often, but its mostly run hard on the track, and oil changed immediately after each track day. I know you really can't draw too many conclusions from one UOA, but the elevated copper and lead concern me. I know the silicon is probably from resealing the pan, or at least a large contributor to it. The engine runs strong, doesn't smoke, doesn't really make noise that I can tell. It doesn't use oil. No coolant or fuel mixed in the oil. The oil cooler was bad, and I just replaced that, it was leaking oil from the o-rings, so maybe it's possible to leach some copper, but I don't know. I've been running Mobil 5W50 A40 on the track. I currently have mobil european 5w40 in it, also A40.

This was a UOA after a 2.5 hour track day (five 30 min sessions, and about 350-400 street miles there and back). It was definitely driven hard on the track, 3-6k rpm the whole time. There was some kind of copper or zinc colored sludge on the pan. I didn't really see any metal in filter, I have an LN spin on adapter. I do have a magnetic drain plug as well and there was only just a super light dusting on it, no more than usual. Anyone have any thoughts on what this might be? There wasn't elevated iron in the sample, I have no idea where the lead would come from, I just used regular 93 octane on the track. I've driven it about 200 miles on fresh oil since this and its been fine, but I plan to change the oil again and send it off for another UOA. I hate to be a pessimist, but is this an impending sign of rod or main bearing failure? I want to drive it some more to get a better idea on the next UOA, but I also don't want to drive it further if it will end up toasting the engine more than it already may or may not be. One cam bank has deviation out of spec 7.2degrees, other was close at 5.8. There were a few plastic bits in the pan, so for sure it needs variocam guides.

You can see the sludge in the pic, and also some shiny residue on the bottom end. I dropped the pan prior to the track and day this oil analysis. I would think if that amount of copper was in the pan, and it was bearing related, this engine would have shat itself long ago. If anyone has thoughts or insight, I definitely want to hear! Thanks!

Sorry, but there are very few potential sources of copper in these engines, the bearings being the largest........................

Homeoboxter · 07-06-2023, 01:23 PM

That`s unfortunate. If the rod bearings fail the engine will knock, but if the main bearings (or one of the seven) are shot, the engine can run just fine as long as the oil pump can keep up with the increasing clearance. The first sign you will probably notice is the oil lamp flickering at idle. Keep us posted.

trackster986 · 07-06-2023, 01:57 PM

Doesn't really knock or make any noise that I can perceive. Main bearings are an interesting thought. The oil pressure at idle when fully warmed up is around 15psi, I think that may be a little low. Oil pressure at cold start is in the 70s, and seems to be around 45-47psi at 3-4 rpm when warm. It does have 987 returns (now) and the updated 987 oil pressure bypass spring/piston.

trackster986 · 07-06-2023, 02:07 PM

I'm guessing the best course of action depending on my next UOA is to just pull the engine and tear it down to see whats up. I was going to pull it for the variocam guides anyway. I believe the IMS bearing is the original as well, but I don't think that is a contributor to any of these wear metals here, but if the engine is out I'd just assume replace that as well.

JFP in PA · 07-06-2023, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homeoboxter

That`s unfortunate. If the rod bearings fail the engine will knock, but if the main bearings (or one of the seven) are shot, the engine can run just fine as long as the oil pump can keep up with the increasing clearance. The first sign you will probably notice is the oil lamp flickering at idle. Keep us posted.

Not always. You can really tear up the thrust bearing before any sound or drop in oil pressure shows up.........

Homeoboxter · 07-06-2023, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Not always. You can really tear up the thrust bearing before any sound or drop in oil pressure shows up.........

Yeah, possible. That`s a lot of copper though.

78F350 · 07-06-2023, 06:17 PM

The last engine that I finished off was still running and making oil pressure with lots of pretty glitter in the filter cup when I pulled it. It took a full day of rallycross to go from sounding good to sounding like a coffee can full of gravel. *The engine had seized once with the previous owner and I was just getting what I could from it before scrapping it - I don't see the economy in rebuilding rather than replacing these yet.
I haven't bothered pulling the sump plate off yet. I'll go do it now to see if it compares to that copper sludge.

78F350 · 07-06-2023, 08:08 PM

Okay... I don't think that mine is a good data point for this. I don't have copper sludge in the sump. Mine is pretty much all ferrous and now I remember that it was starting to flash low oil pressure at idle when I drove off the trailer.

'Quarter scale' image of the debris:

trackster986, Mine is different, but... I bet if you keep running yours you'll run out of copper pretty quickly. Sorry for your loss. Buy a used engine or a wrecked 2000 S to 2002 S engine donor.

JayG · 07-07-2023, 04:56 AM

Also Mobile 1 is not the best oil for track use.

Look at Motul Xcess 8100 5w40 Its a better oil and has a better high temp sheer

trackster986 · 07-07-2023, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 78F350

Okay... I don't think that mine is a good data point for this. I don't have copper sludge in the sump. Mine is pretty much all ferrous and now I remember that it was starting to flash low oil pressure at idle when I drove off the trailer.

trackster986, Mine is different, but... I bet if you keep running yours you'll run out of copper pretty quickly. Sorry for your loss. Buy a used engine or a wrecked 2000 S to 2002 S engine donor.

Wow that poor engine had a lot of oil sludge. I'm gonna keep my eye open for wrecked S's and see if one comes along cheap enough. Probably just drive this one til it blows up, which could be tomorrow. It's had a hard life.