I read where the 2.7 motor blows up for no real reason...

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by bmussatti

Brucelee, you are obviously very successful and competent at selling Porsche products through your dealership. Yet, you know there is an intrinsic design flaw with the engines. How are you able to balance these two conflicting dynamics? What do you actually tell your customers, if they ask or not (about potential problems)?

Thanks.

Good point, although I don't have the dealership anymore.

I used to be very candid with my buyers about the RMS issue and advise them to buy a warranty IF that kind of expense bothered them. I did not sell warranties but could refer them to someone who did.

Usually, I knew if any of my cars had had an RMS repair and I would advise buyers of this also. Some had several RMS replacments by the way.

I decided to close the dealership around the time that the IMS came to my attention but one had nothing to do with the other.

I would advise anyone looking at a used Box out of warranty to at least evaluate an aftermarket warranty.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by z12358

Here's what we know:

1. RMS is more frequent than IMS but less severe.

2. IMS is less frequent than RMS but more severe.

3. We know nothing about HOW frequent either of them are.

4. ALL "issues" during the warranty years MUST be producing waranty claims small enough to allow Porsche to keep highest profit margins in the industry.

5. Beyond the warranty years, unless third-party Extended Warranties for Porsches are multiples of times more expensive than those for other brands, ALL "issues" in aggregate couldn't possibly be that much worse than what is expected from other brands.

The free market is the greatest aggregator of data and the best indicator of trends.

Rich, freedom -- learn from it.

Z.

You make several leaps of logic and do not account for time lags.

Also there is this little vexing issue.

Some warranty companies will simply not cover a Porsche of any kind. Why do you think that is?

Some will not cover Porsches over certain miles, yet they WILL cover Lexus for the same miles.

Why do you think that is?

[Brucelee]

BTW- you guys may be making too much out of the "highest margins in the industry data."

In fact, my service manager told me that "the warranty claims expense on the cars is VERY VERY high, but then again, so is the price they get."

[JackG]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

You make several leaps of logic and do not account for time lags.

Also there is this little vexing issue.

Some warranty companies will simply not cover a Porsche of any kind. Why do you think that is?

Some will not cover Porsches over certain miles, yet they WILL cover Lexus for the same miles.

Why do you think that is?

Using your questions to bolster your point requires more leaps of "logic", but to pursue that venue some more...

Do warranty companies exclude other cars? Maybe like Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus? If so, could it be because of high repair part and labor costs, higher than average repair frequency, or even typical car usage (track vs grocery store runs)? Maybe a mix of all the above?

Have many Lexus cars have you seen running a track event or autocross, in comparison to Porsches? Do you think that, on average, a day in the life of a Porsche and a Lexus is the same? How could that sway a warranty company's policy?

[Brucelee]

"Do warranty companies exclude other cars? Maybe like Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus? If so, could it be because of high repair part and labor costs, higher than average repair frequency, or even typical car usage (track vs grocery store runs)? Maybe a mix of all the above?"

Well, yes, I think you have sort of proved my point.

We have been saying all along that the Box is a very expensive car to maintain post warranty. Frequency of repair and avg cost of repair would about account for it.

We never said it was the ONLY car that fit this category.

Specific to Lexus, I would make the following wager.

Take a Lexus V8 and a Porsche flat six and run them the exact same way. I would put a grand up today that says that no matter what, that Lexus engine will last twice as long as the Porsche motor.

[rdancd816]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

"Do warranty companies exclude other cars? Maybe like Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus? If so, could it be because of high repair part and labor costs, higher than average repair frequency, or even typical car usage (track vs grocery store runs)? Maybe a mix of all the above?"

Well, yes, I think you have sort of proved my point.

We have been saying all along that the Box is a very expensive car to maintain post warranty. Frequency of repair and avg cost of repair would about account for it.

We never said it was the ONLY car that fit this category.

Specific to Lexus, I would make the following wager.

Take a Lexus V8 and a Porsche flat six and run them the exact same way. I would put a grand up today that says that no matter what, that Lexus engine will last twice as long as the Porsche motor.

I think you are right on the money, I owned a Lexus 300 and put 150K on it with nothing more than scheduled maintanence. No expensive surprises. My Boxter is now 10 years old and it is quite an expensive proposition. I have not had an engine failure or had to deal with an RMS repair but it soaks up a couple hundred on average each month for small, annoying fixes. Mine is one of those extremely low miles cars that can be problematic as it was never driven properly (17,000). I still love the vehicle but am a little surprized by all the flaws and anticipated repairs. (RMS, Converible top cable mechanism, Coolant Tank, Suspension issues, Airbag light and harnesses, etc.) Being a first time Porsche owner whose car was PPI'd I am a bit dissappointed in the lack of the "bulletproof" quality I expected in a car like this. I realize the car is now 10 years old but I have had less issues with an old '86 Fiero GT I own for fun. It's got 86,000 on it and never breaks. No "catches on fire" comments please, Pontiac fixed that problem via recall for free. Anyway I would still not hesitate to buy a good, clean '97 but would advise anyone in that market to be prepared!

[Brucelee]

Now on the NEWER side of the ledger, here is a post from a concurrent thread:

[B]Hi all,

Been really busy lately and haven't been following the forum. Thought i'd report back on my car.

Replaced my rear tires at 18,800 miles. Also got my third tranny replaced at 18,800 miles under warranty. This is going to be a sticking point with me and Porsche...

At 20,098 I put the car in for service. Got the minor maintenance done and replaced the brakes, which were below 10%.

A brake job consists of pads, rotors and parts. $695. Minor maintenance is something in the $200+ range. This is all at Pioneer Centres, San Diego.

Luckily I had a 15% off coupon that they'd sent me for both jobs. Grand total was therefore $963.43.

At the same time I also reported a bit of funny handling and a clunky sound from the rear passenger side. We surmised that it might be a sway bar end link, which is apparently a common mode of failure for these cars.

When I came to pick up my car, I was informed that my right rear shock needed to be replaced. It's a PASM shock too.

Hmm... ditch the car or extended warranty? I love the way it looks and drives, but if major parts keep dying, well, that's no good...
__________________
2005 Seal Grey Boxster S
987 Amberectomy

[Dr. Kill]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Now on the NEWER side of the ledger, here is a post from a concurrent thread:

[B]Hi all,

Been really busy lately and haven't been following the forum. Thought i'd report back on my car.

Replaced my rear tires at 18,800 miles. Also got my third tranny replaced at 18,800 miles under warranty. This is going to be a sticking point with me and Porsche...

At 20,098 I put the car in for service. Got the minor maintenance done and replaced the brakes, which were below 10%.

A brake job consists of pads, rotors and parts. $695. Minor maintenance is something in the $200+ range. This is all at Pioneer Centres, San Diego.

Luckily I had a 15% off coupon that they'd sent me for both jobs. Grand total was therefore $963.43.

At the same time I also reported a bit of funny handling and a clunky sound from the rear passenger side. We surmised that it might be a sway bar end link, which is apparently a common mode of failure for these cars.

When I came to pick up my car, I was informed that my right rear shock needed to be replaced. It's a PASM shock too.

Hmm... ditch the car or extended warranty? I love the way it looks and drives, but if major parts keep dying, well, that's no good...

__________________

That is just ridiculous. If this is not an exaggeration of some kind, I am sure this is not representative of the true population of these vehicles. Three transmissions before the 20k mark sounds like a lemon to me.

[Silverstreak]

Let me ask this; My car is a 2000 model. Wasn't there a range of cars that were less of a risk for failures ? I guess I don't understand..... I hear a lot of 1998 and 1999 2.7L cars had the shaft breakage problem, and then again I heard that somewhere between 2000 and 2001 there was a change made in the bearing supports that caused an even higher risk of failures. Does anyone have accurate info on this ?

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by Dr. Kill

That is just ridiculous. If this is not an exaggeration of some kind, I am sure this is not representative of the true population of these vehicles. Three transmissions before the 20k mark sounds like a lemon to me.

...or a non-driver.

[Brucelee]

"That is just ridiculous. If this is not an exaggeration of some kind, I am sure this is not representative of the true population of these vehicles. Three transmissions before the 20k mark sounds like a lemon to me."

Perhaps. How about the other items mentioned?

I have to say that I have been driving for nearly 40 yrs, and am not gentle with my cars. I have NEVER replaced a trans.

Go figure!

PS-remember Porsche changed trans makers in 2005!

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

"That is just ridiculous. If this is not an exaggeration of some kind, I am sure this is not representative of the true population of these vehicles. Three transmissions before the 20k mark sounds like a lemon to me."

Perhaps. How about the other items mentioned?

I have to say that I have been driving for nearly 40 yrs, and am not gentle with my cars. I have NEVER replaced a trans.

Go figure!

PS-remember Porsche changed trans makers in 2005!

My 2002 Boxster S had its transmission replaced at 12,000 miles. It now has 17,500 miles...

[Dr. Kill]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

...or a non-driver.

I think that particular car might have just been cursed. It seems likely given the situation.

Bruce - you are right, that is a long list of problems. Knock on wood I am almost at 17k and have been trouble free.

[z12358]

Brucelee:
Now on the NEWER side of the ledger, here is a post from a concurrent thread:

Now that we left logic and common sense to the wolfes... I'm not much into "evidence" fist-fights but here's a pic from a current grin-fest. 200 Porsches aged 1-30 yrs providing copius amounts of joy to their enthusiastic owners. Two full days of high performance driving -- not one "issue". I guess, according to your standards of discourse, I should be able to rest my case now -- of course, until you pound back with more hard hitting "evidence" by reposting the next flat tire "incident" the moment it occurs.

Please do not underestimate the info you can gain from the markets. Do not brush off the high profit margins as insignificant. Your service manager said that the warranty claims were "VERY VERY high", but that Porsche charges a lot for its cars too. Ask yourself, could Porsche be charging such a premium for its cars over DECADES if the frequency and severity of their issues were that outrageous and their designs were that bad? Both sides of the profit margin equation (revenues per car AND cost per car, including warranty claims) are screaming something at you. You only need to listen. Could Yugo and Pinto have simply increased prices in order to increase profit margins and make their businesses viable?

To cut the long story short. For Porsche to be standing behind a 4 year warranty on high performance vehicles with such expensive parts and maintenance AND to have the buying public willingly pay such a premium for their cars is no small feat. There has to be something GOOD going on there, and the "issues" couldn't possibly be that bad. As a confirmation, add to this the free will and the business cases of the third-party extended warranty providers that provide Porsche warranties for prices comparable to Porsche's high-performance peers.

Z.

[Brucelee]

Now that we left logic and common sense to the wolfes... I'm not much into "evidence" fist-fights but here's a pic from a current grin-fest. 200 Porsches aged 1-30 yrs providing copius amounts of joy to their enthusiastic owners. Two full days of high performance driving -- not one "issue". I guess, according to your standards of discourse, I should be able to rest my case now -- of course, until you pound back with more hard hitting "evidence" by reposting the next flat tire "incident" the moment it occurs.

This of course, proves that Porsche's are popular. Who said they were not? This thread is about existing flaws in the engine design of the 986/987/996/997. How does this picture address this issue?

I also don't see any 944s in this picture. I think they are all getting new timing belts?

Please do not underestimate the info you can gain from the markets. Do not brush off the high profit margins as insignificant. Your service manager said that the warranty claims were "VERY VERY high", but that Porsche charges a lot for its cars too. Ask yourself, could Porsche be charging such a premium for its cars over DECADES if the frequency and severity of their issues were that outrageous and their designs were that bad? Both sides of the profit margin equation (revenues per car AND cost per car, including warranty claims) are screaming something at you. You only need to listen. Could Yugo and Pinto have simply increased prices in order to increase profit margins and make their businesses viable?

The problem with your logic is that Porsche has not been very profitable for DECADES. In fact, when they broght out the Boxster, they were close to being bankrupt. Hence, your reliance on the profit margin thing is limited to more current events.

Moreover, Porsche increased its warranty due to market forces, not profits or because their cars are all that good. This was done in response to Mercedes, Lexus et al. Hey, you gonna charge me $95Grand for a 911 and warranty it for 36 months????????????

BTW-why use Yugo as an analogy? Same quality?

To cut the long story short. For Porsche to be standing behind a 4 year warranty on high performance vehicles with such expensive parts and maintenance AND to have the buying public willingly pay such a premium for their cars is no small feat. There has to be something GOOD going on there, and the "issues" couldn't possibly be that bad. As a confirmation, add to this the free will and the business cases of the third-party extended warranty providers that provide Porsche warranties for prices comparable to Porsche's high-performance peers.

This is just laughable. You would like to dismiss acknowledged and clear engine design failures with this logic.

I love it!

[z12358]

Brucelee:
"This is just laughable. You would like to dismiss acknowledged and clear engine design failures with this logic."

We obviously come from different planets and I'd rather not say what I think about YOUR logic. So let's just leave it at that.

Z.