I read where the 2.7 motor blows up for no real reason...

[C5150]

Found a list from Consumer Reports (2005) featured on Yahoo Autos

Here's the link: http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/best_and_worst_used_cars.html;_ylt=Ahbc7MKgto2K6dp GaZXjZIRrc78F


Don't want to stoke the fire one way or the other - but didn't see any Porsche on the WORST list. That said - I didn't see any Porsche on the BEST list either...

What I DID see was my Chevy Blazer - and I believe it - bit over $8K on repairs thus far... And now the pulse motor for the wipers is toast, and they go at whatever speed they choose - whenever they choose....

Still lovin' the box - C5150

[ohioboxster]

I think Jim made up those 25 pages in Yahoo's search engine just to fuel the conspiracy. Dont get me wrong Im not douting there are 25 pages regarding RMS I just think Jim authored them all ! Why, Jim Why?!

I asked my buddy today as a matter of fact about RMS issues on 911's. I said, "Chad, what do you know about rear main seals on 911's, how many leak?" Chad replied, "All of them" For the new guys, Chad owns a high end car lot in the Akron area.

I think he's lying and possibly in on the conspiracy.....bastard.

We were however talking about 2.7's blowing up though. Lets not get too far off base.

[JackG]

For clarity's sake, don't forget that Jim's conversation was about RMS issues, not failed engines. The 20-25% number includes cars that just had to have the rear main seal replaced, not the entire engine.

How many of those will leak again? Unknown.

How many of those were, or will be out of spec and need a replacement? Unknown.

It's obviously not every one, but some small percentage of that 1 in 4.

Point is, 25% do not have to have an engine replacement, at least not from any poll, measurement or hearsay anyone can point us to.

Here's to being in the 75%!!

[z12358]

MNBoxster:
Not at all well-prepared, all I did was type Boxter RMS problem? in Yahoo's search engine and there were more than 25 pages of results, I only drew from the first 6 pages.

Type in "Lexus engine problem" in Google. 2,040,000 entries. Have fun with it.

You are trying to defend an indefensible position in the face of all the evidence, anecdotal or not.

Perhaps you can also tell me what my position is? Please refer to my previous posts and pay special attention to "frequency and severity". And there is no such thing as anecdotal evidence. Especially not in a world when THIS thread can be used as "evidence" by Jims on other forums.

Can't wait to hear from you when your garage floor is covered with Mobil1...

Geez, Jim. Wouldn't that be the ultimate proof and happy ending for you. Me wrong and miserable -- you, right and happy. I'll see what I can do.

Z.

[Sammy]

Geez... I have got to stop going to sleep and keep up with all the posts!

Z, thanks for the reminder about the Boxsters styling! The Carerra is pretty but the drop top version just doesn't look right to me...

Back to the topic at hand, I would imagine that my perspective is different than someone with a newer vehicle who's warranty period still remains. It's easy to sit back and say that this isn't a problem if you know that your newer Boxster is sitting in the garage and if an engine failure happens you simply take it back to the dealer and have it fixed (no offense to these people and I hope you understand my point). Us older Boxster owners don't have that luxury. Even with an extended warranty you have to read the fine print and if you have to make a claim of this size it can be like pulling teeth.

I will commend the people that have brought actual figures to the table (estimates or not) because they are the best thing we have to use.

I'm not worried about a RMS leak as a $1k repair isn't crazy in todays world. I'm concerned about the catastrophic engine failure that costs $12k+ to repair. High frequency or not, it is a known design problem that has blown up some engines potentially costing the customer lots of money. This is not a high mileage or abuse issue, this is a design flaw.

I think this is an issue that can't be overlooked by perspective or current owners. Unfortunately it will mean people will buy extended warranties because of a poor design.

Anybody have a Ford Pinto for sale???

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by C5150

Found a list from Consumer Reports (2005) featured on Yahoo Autos

Here's the link: http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/best_and_worst_used_cars.html;_ylt=Ahbc7MKgto2K6dp GaZXjZIRrc78F


Don't want to stoke the fire one way or the other - but didn't see any Porsche on the WORST list. That said - I didn't see any Porsche on the BEST list either...

What I DID see was my Chevy Blazer - and I believe it - bit over $8K on repairs thus far... And now the pulse motor for the wipers is toast, and they go at whatever speed they choose - whenever they choose....

Still lovin' the box - C5150

That may be true. However, if memory serves, Porsche is #61 or so on the JD Powers 3 yr customer satisfaction survey.

Not good but of course, not definitive.

[Brucelee]

Here's another quote from it:
"Porsche was awarded the 2006 J.D. Power award for highest initial quality of automobile brands.

See my reference above on LONG TERM JD Powers data.

[Brucelee]

OK.

Lets see if we can bring this to an end.

Here is what we know.

The factory will never acknowledge design flaws yet these are well documented in pro-Porsche magazines like Panorama. I have NOT SEEN credible evidence to refute these two design issues. If so, please post.

There is clearly an RMS issue which MAY or MAY NOT be rectified in the latest batch of engines. This RMS issue is legend among both 996 and 986 owners. Some 987 owners have reported this issue also.

We DO KNOW that the factory has issue several new seals in response to the RMS issue. The last one, the Cayeene fix, MAY be working although my tech says it may not be also.

There is clearly an IMS problem that grenades the motor WHEN it appears. Number of these is unknown. This forum has reported a handful to date.

We do not have any factory data on ANY of this.

JD Powers surveys indicate that Porsches start out pleasing their owners and drop very quickly by the end of three years.

Any other things we can agree on?

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

OK.

Lets see if we can bring this to an end.

Here is what we know.

The factory will never acknowledge design flaws yet these are well documented in pro-Porsche magazines like Panorama. I have NOT SEEN credible evidence to refute these two design issues. If so, please post.

There is clearly an RMS issue which MAY or MAY NOT be rectified in the latest batch of engines. This RMS issue is legend among both 996 and 986 owners. Some 987 owners have reported this issue also.

We DO KNOW that the factory has issue several new seals in response to the RMS issue. The last one, the Cayeene fix, MAY be working although my tech says it may not be also.

There is clearly an IMS problem that grenades the motor WHEN it appears. Number of these is unknown. This forum has reported a handful to date.

We do not have any factory data on ANY of this.

JD Powers surveys indicate that Porsches start out pleasing their owners and drop very quickly by the end of three years.

Any other things we can agree on?

I was typing as you posted this so I'll shut up now...

Great debate and information!

Originally Posted by Brucelee

OK.

Lets see if we can bring this to an end.

Here is what we know.

The factory will never acknowledge design flaws yet these are well documented in pro-Porsche magazines like Panorama. I have NOT SEEN credible evidence to refute these two design issues. If so, please post.

There is clearly an RMS issue which MAY or MAY NOT be rectified in the latest batch of engines. This RMS issue is legend among both 996 and 986 owners. Some 987 owners have reported this issue also.

We DO KNOW that the factory has issue several new seals in response to the RMS issue. The last one, the Cayeene fix, MAY be working although my tech says it may not be also.

There is clearly an IMS problem that grenades the motor WHEN it appears. Number of these is unknown. This forum has reported a handful to date.

We do not have any factory data on ANY of this.

JD Powers surveys indicate that Porsches start out pleasing their owners and drop very quickly by the end of three years.

Any other things we can agree on?

Brucelee, you are obviously very successful and competent at selling Porsche products through your dealership. Yet, you know there is an intrinsic design flaw with the engines. How are you able to balance these two conflicting dynamics? What do you actually tell your customers, if they ask or not (about potential problems)?

Thanks.

[z12358]

Here's what we know:

1. RMS is more frequent than IMS but less severe.

2. IMS is less frequent than RMS but more severe.

3. We know nothing about HOW frequent either of them are.

4. ALL "issues" during the warranty years MUST be producing waranty claims small enough to allow Porsche to keep highest profit margins in the industry.

5. Beyond the warranty years, unless third-party Extended Warranties for Porsches are multiples of times more expensive than those for other brands, ALL "issues" in aggregate couldn't possibly be that much worse than what is expected from other brands.

The free market is the greatest aggregator of data and the best indicator of trends.

Rich, freedom -- learn from it.

Z.

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by z12358

Here's what we know:

1. RMS is more frequent than IMS but less severe.

2. IMS is less frequent than RMS but more severe.

3. We know nothing about HOW frequent either of them are.

4. ALL "issues" during the warranty years MUST be producing waranty claims small enough to allow Porsche to keep highest profit margins in the industry.

5. Beyond the warranty years, unless third-party Extended Warranties for Porsches are multiples of times more expensive than those for other brands, ALL "issues" in aggregate couldn't possibly be that much worse than what is expected from other brands.

The free market is the greatest aggregator of data and the best indicator of trends.

Rich, freedom -- learn from it.

Z.

Aww shoot... my bad Brucelee...

4) I don't think anyone has ever questioned this one. Profit margin is a function of a whole lot of things and is not some sort of magic indicator of quality. Porsche has a business case that works and no one is questioning this. Yes, we understand your point that if this was a widespread issue than Porsche would be out of business. If this was a widespread problem yes, they would not be profitable. If you looked at the profit margins for Ford when their big SUV's dominated the market you would be shocked! They made a killing in that market, but do you think its because they had some sort of magic formula for low warranty costs?

Once again, no one would argue that if this was a widespread problem that Porsche would not be profitable.

BTW - What is the profit margin that you are referring to? You keep talking about it, but what is the figure or range and where did you get it from?

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by z12358

Here's what we know:

1. RMS is more frequent than IMS but less severe.

2. IMS is less frequent than RMS but more severe.

3. We know nothing about HOW frequent either of them are.

4. ALL "issues" during the warranty years MUST be producing waranty claims small enough to allow Porsche to keep highest profit margins in the industry.

5. Beyond the warranty years, unless third-party Extended Warranties for Porsches are multiples of times more expensive than those for other brands, ALL "issues" in aggregate couldn't possibly be that much worse than what is expected from other brands.

The free market is the greatest aggregator of data and the best indicator of trends.

Rich, freedom -- learn from it.

Z.

You make several leaps of logic and do not account for time lags.

Also there is this little vexing issue.

Some warranty companies will simply not cover a Porsche of any kind. Why do you think that is?

Some will not cover Porsches over certain miles, yet they WILL cover Lexus for the same miles.

Why do you think that is?

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by bmussatti

Brucelee, you are obviously very successful and competent at selling Porsche products through your dealership. Yet, you know there is an intrinsic design flaw with the engines. How are you able to balance these two conflicting dynamics? What do you actually tell your customers, if they ask or not (about potential problems)?

Thanks.

Good point, although I don't have the dealership anymore.

I used to be very candid with my buyers about the RMS issue and advise them to buy a warranty IF that kind of expense bothered them. I did not sell warranties but could refer them to someone who did.

Usually, I knew if any of my cars had had an RMS repair and I would advise buyers of this also. Some had several RMS replacments by the way.

I decided to close the dealership around the time that the IMS came to my attention but one had nothing to do with the other.

I would advise anyone looking at a used Box out of warranty to at least evaluate an aftermarket warranty.