Tune after Headers only?

[-tWv-]

Hey all,



I searched around and couldn't find a straight answer, so hoping someone can help with this simple question. I have a '98 boxster and wanting to get started on some upgrades. My plan is to start on the exhaust and one of the cheaper initial upgrades is to install some long-tube headers. Since my car doesn't have the pre-cat in the header, I should be able to install these without changing the O2 sensor config at all. I am planning eventually to pair headers with intake, high flow cats, FVD brombacher exhaust, and a tune but saving money currently for those upgrades. I've read some conflicting reports online about headers requiring a tune on other cars so want some insight from anyone who has gone this route before on the 986.



I bought Manzo headers (jumped the gun a bit) and want to go ahead and install them, but want to make sure there won't be any negative impact. Can I go ahead and swap in the headers or do I need to wait and do this stuff all at once with a tune?



Thanks in advance!

[edc]

I've out the cheapy sports headers on 2 986 S and neither needed a map.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by -tWv-

Hey all,

I searched around and couldn't find a straight answer, so hoping someone can help with this simple question. I have a '98 boxster and wanting to get started on some upgrades. My plan is to start on the exhaust and one of the cheaper initial upgrades is to install some long-tube headers. Since my car doesn't have the pre-cat in the header, I should be able to install these without changing the O2 sensor config at all. I am planning eventually to pair headers with instake, high flow cats, FVD brombacher exhaust, and a tune but saving money currently for those upgrades. I've read some conflicting reports online about headers requiring a tune on other cars so want some insight from anyone who has gone this route before on the 986.

I bought Manzo headers (jumped the gun a bit) and want to go ahead and install them, but want to make sure there won't be any negative impact. Can I go ahead and swap in the headers or do I need to wait and do this stuff all at once with a tune?

Thanks in advance!

Zero negative impact. You may or may not find that they fit without modification..... we get what we pay for. I had to get creative on the right-side.
You won;t need any tune or map for them. In fact, it's questionable how much gain you;d see (if any) if you DID map after they were installed.

Now, once you get to the 987 airbox / MAF / Intake, etc etc, then with everything combined, then it's time to add a tune.

[-tWv-]

Thanks for the quick responses! Going to get them in this weekend, definitely interested to see how fitment is because the price was ridiculously low for these things...

[BYprodriver]

No need to waste money, the oe "tune" is the best available, it adapts to increased intake air flow.

[-tWv-]

Update here... holy &$&! that was a nightmare. Thought I was doing all the right things by letting the car soak with some penetrant fluid for a couple days and taking it slow trying to back the manifold bolts out. Wrong. Ended up snapping 10/12 bolts inside the head... For reference if anyone else gets into this situation the trial and error extraction process was as follows:

1) Tried to drill out a bolt and use an easy out... snapped the easy out inside the bolt even using very gradual pressure. F...

2) Had a friend with a welder. Tried to weld nuts onto the ends of the broken studs and back them out. By all internet accounts this method *should* work the majority of the time. Tried on like 6 of the studs and each time the bolt continued to shear off. The welds held firm but the bolts seem to be so brittle they snap in an instant. We also used a torch during this step to try to heat the head up, didn’t make any difference. Damn you Porsche for using M8 manifold bolts....

3) Resorted to drilling out.
- We made a drill guide out of the old manifold and marked drill bits to the correct depth.

- Drilled out the holes on the manifold to a 1/2” and had some custom bushings made to guide a “H” bit (luckily have friends who work in a machine shop). This is the correct size if you were going to re-tap the holes to the original size.

- Started with a small bit and progressively drilled out the bolt until using the H. Even with the hole completely drilled out it was still super tough to get a tap to go in cleanly due to tiny flecks of the steel bolt remaining. After 3 days and about 10 hours at this point I was getting impatient, so we resorted to boring out the holes more with a 21/64” bit and using helicoils instead. This was vastly easier as we had clean aluminum to tap into. The helicoils held firm and were easy to put in with the freshly tapped holes. All in the drilling/tapping process took 10-12 hours over 2 days with many swear words in-between.

Some notes: During this process there is limited clearance to drill straight holes, so we had to remove the thermostat and partially drain the coolant to get to one of them. I would also highly recommend getting some extended 6” bits as it was nearly impossible to reach a few of the holes without it. Cobalt is your friend here.

The only other major disruption we encountered was that snapped easy out from step 1. We tried using cobalt bits, carbide deburr tools and nothing was really working. Finally busted out the dremel and some aluminum oxide grind tools and after about 30 mins and 4-5 bits ground to dust we got through it. The grind bits seemed to work better since it allowed better precision and slowly removed material.

Finally, the fitment for the Manzo headers was fine with a bit of manipulation required of the exhaust to get everything to line up. The kit did not include the correct hardware however and the gaskets are sort of junk. Would highly recommend just purchasing new OEM gaskets to do this job and make sure you have all the right hardware.

All in all, 0/10 would do this again and would have just left the headers alone. But it’s done now! Filling up the car again with coolant today and hopefully back to driving.

[Robert986]

Man, that is brutal... Well done!

I just wonder why some run into this problem, I got my headers off without any issues.

[-tWv-]

Originally Posted by Robert986

Man, that is brutal... Well done!

I just wonder why some run into this problem, I got my headers off without any issues.

Brutal is an apt description! I had read a lot of experiences like yours before I embarked on this project so it was definitely unexpected to have so much trouble. Hopefully this helps others though if they get into it as bad as I did.

[flmont]

I don't know much about anything..But it looks like your stock exhaust header would flow very well compared to the new header's unless the pipe diameter is way small ?? Frank

PS..That truly sucks about those Damn bolts ,that's some work for sure !!

[-tWv-]

Originally Posted by flmont

I don't know much about anything..But it looks like your stock exhaust header would flow very well compared to the new header's unless the pipe diameter is way small ?? Frank

PS..That truly sucks about those Damn bolts ,that's some work for sure !!

The longer tubes in theory should allow the gas to exit at a higher velocity and promote scavenging even though there are some bends in there. Good scavenging normally helps with power delivery in the mid/high rev range since the gas can escape faster and is being sucked down the tube by the previous exhaust pulse. The stock headers don’t really have any sort of collector or design to promote good flow. Obviously they work just fine, but probably could be improved.

Now I’m not saying that these cheapy headers were designed with a lot of thought in mind so they may not be the most effective, but at least that’s the idea with longer tubes and a central collector.

A helpful video to understand exhaust velocity/scavenging: https://youtu.be/jjPeP_Nn2B4

[Robert986]

Only time you really need a tune of some sort is if you go for the larger 987 MAF tube.
Regarding headers I got lucky with the ebay headers, good fit! There is also a slight improvement in sound on high rpm.

You guys using studs instead of bolts, what studs are best/correct in the alu engine, stainless?

[Dave80GTSi]

See my posts #2 and #4 here:

What's the difference between early and late cat delete pipes?

[jaykay]

Thanks Dave I will zip over and review. I had dropped this idea a long long time ago have thought I needed Euro 3.2 manifolds. Hard to come by over here. I still have the dead octopi (stock catted headers) strapped under there. I am afraid of losing bottom end torque as it a street drive car. I am considering the FVD headers and mid-cats (TBD) as the fitment may be less of a risk.....how your bottom end with this set up?

[Dave80GTSi]

Originally Posted by jaykay

Thanks Dave I will zip over and review. I had dropped this idea a long long time ago have thought I needed Euro 3.2 manifolds. Hard to come by over here. I still have the dead octopi (stock catted headers) strapped under there. I am afraid of losing bottom end torque as it a street drive car. I am considering the FVD headers and mid-cats (TBD) as the fitment may be less of a risk.....how your bottom end with this set up?

Agreed with edc - nothing but positive gains. Notably better 'revability' in the lower gears. My Circuit Works mid pipes did require a bit of a hammer dent on one side's tube for rear axle suspension clearance, but they fit fine on the other side. Which plays back to some of my earlier comments about aftermarket exhaust pipework fitment being a hit or miss deal. But once the offending tube was massaged a bit, all ended well, and I'd never consider going back to the OEM setup.

For the very cheap purchase cost of a set of used USA-spec early non-cat manifolds like mine, I'd urge you to just try them and see how you like them.

[jaykay]

True, good point. if I do come across them I will grab them. Fitment issues are why I was considering these

https://www.fvd.net/us-en/210111986S/long-tube-sport-header-set-986-boxster-boxster-s.html

The thinking was pay for pieces that will fit but don’t break the bank. Anybody try these?

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by jaykay

True, good point. if I do come across them I will grab them. Fitment issues are why I was considering these

https://www.fvd.net/us-en/210111986S/long-tube-sport-header-set-986-boxster-boxster-s.html

The thinking was pay for pieces that will fit but don’t break the bank. Anybody try these?

Sorry for bumping an old thread but this was the only relevant mention to this particular header I could find on the forum.

I purchased these a few months ago and will be installing them next week. I would also like to know if anybody has taken the plunge on this set of headers.

They are very lightweight and beautifully welded, so I am looking forward to the result, but not particularly happy about the loss of the primary catalytic converter when removing the factory header.

[edc]

I am in Europe and I'm on my second S with the cheapy eBay manifolds or headers. No issues with fitment either time. Dyno plot shows gain only no loss.

[edc]

European 986s don't have a cat in the header/manifold.

[bcrdukes]

I guess we'll find out the hard way next week. I'll report back.

I suppose depending on where on the fence you sit on the environmental spectrum, we've got the catalytic converter attached to the headers on North American cars. I like having them there because is drowns out the sound and the exhaust smell is not as awful. But on the other hand, it also robs the vehicle of its performance which is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

If the sound is really bad, I'll swap back to stock headers. The low rumble of the FVD Brombacher Sound exhaust is nice as-is, so I can only be optimistic and hope the headers will make it sound nicer, but not necessarily loud and obnoxious.

[Cunningr]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

I guess we'll find out the hard way next week. I'll report back.

I suppose depending on where on the fence you sit on the environmental spectrum, we've got the catalytic converter attached to the headers on North American cars. I like having them there because is drowns out the sound and the exhaust smell is not as awful. But on the other hand, it also robs the vehicle of its performance which is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

If the sound is really bad, I'll swap back to stock headers. The low rumble of the FVD Brombacher Sound exhaust is nice as-is, so I can only be optimistic and hope the headers will make it sound nicer, but not necessarily loud and obnoxious.

Yeah that is where I am, want the performance but not really more sound.