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-   -   Who is using the 987 MAF Holder / Tube? (http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/77400-who-using-987-maf-holder-tube.html)

maytag 03-19-2020 07:47 AM
Who is using the 987 MAF Holder / Tube?
 
All:
I posted this question, but realized I sorta had it buried in a thread about engine fault codes. So I'm bringing it front-n-center.

Among y'all who've gone to a larger TB and used the 987 airbox, are any of you using the 987 MAF Holder / Tube with success?

I'm getting codes P1126 and P1133 which suggest lean condition on both banks. (IIUC)

I know that many people are using the 986 MAF holder, but that didn't really make sense to me, to neck back down that way. It seemed to negate all the work to get the bigger diameter in there int he first place. y'know?


Waddy'all know?

BYprodriver 03-19-2020 08:12 AM
I have the 987 MAF & airbox

maytag 03-19-2020 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BYprodriver (Post 613621)
I have the 987 MAF & airbox
In the 987 maf holder? Any issues with adaptation? Lean codes? Special tune?

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Quadcammer 03-19-2020 10:45 AM
I run it with a softronic tune. Runs a touch rich, but no issues or codes.

itsnotanova 03-20-2020 01:45 AM
My memory is a little blurry, but I have a 3.4 with the 987 air box and maf holder. I think I had problems with the maf sensor and had to switch it. I can't remember what sensor I had but I do remember having to use a different one. Either I had a 987 sensor and switched to a 996 or vice versa.

NewArt 03-20-2020 04:47 AM
I am using the airbox, maf holder and maf . It does require a tune. I think that I discussed this in my YouTube series on 987 air intake mods.

Robert986 03-20-2020 10:55 AM
I guess it's obvious that the problem is that the ECU does calculate airflow based on the diameter/area of the 986-tube. So without a spec tune it will go lean. Anyone know what electric signal is coming from the MAF? Can it easily be modded, eg via an arduino or something simpler?

maytag 03-20-2020 11:16 AM
Thanks to all of you who've responded. this is helpful.

I've tried, unsuccessfully, to find a dealer who would flash the anniversary edition tune to my car, knowing that this would accommodate the larger MAF holder. The tune that I got from Vivid (VRTuning) ignores the o2 sensors, so it doesn't work to get me past the IM station.

I may determine that, as much as it's a PITA, it may be most simple to swap back in the 986 maf holder for IM testing, and then swap it back out.

(spare me the "save-the-earth" lectures.... look up what "lean condition" means) :cheers:

jaykay 03-20-2020 01:28 PM
No just flash with the 996 ROW tune! Try an independent equiped with the PWIS (ooooh did I get the acronym wrong?). This tune will match the 987 MAF housing diameter. You will need the right iteration sensor. It will be the for the 987.1 IIRC. I am sure others here will follow up more details that I have omitted

Robert986 03-21-2020 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaykay (Post 613709)
No just flash with the 996 ROW tune! Try an independent equiped with the PWIS (ooooh did I get the acronym wrong?). This tune will match the 987 MAF housing diameter. You will need the right iteration sensor. It will be the for the 987.1 IIRC. I am sure others here will follow up more details that I have omitted
Any reason why the 996 row would be preferred over the anniversary?

1thenaton1 03-21-2020 07:54 AM
you can't increase the diameter of the maf housing without adjusting fueling tables. MAF calculates the volume of air ingested using the velocity of the air past the sensor, which of course is a function of the size of the tube it's flowing through. The codes you are getting are generated in regular driving where the O2 sensors read lean/rich. At wide open throttle where the ECU is running on set tables (and not off of O2 sensor feedback), you will be running lean (increased airflow not accounted for because of incorrect maf housing size). Lean is mean, until it's not. Without monitoring this with a wideband O2 and updating to a custom tune you are asking for trouble, especially on track. What is you crazy ;)

jaykay 03-21-2020 08:20 AM
Robert,

Perhaps slightly better performance and the proper match for the 987 MAF diameter; folks here are actively using it. Full disclosure: I have just changed from a third party tune to the stock 986S and planned to go to the 996 ROW. I am not sure about the anniversary tune and don't know anyone using it. I believe the anniversary is geared to the 68mm TB where as the 996 is geared to the 74mm.

You will: be able to start the car without depressing the clutch, reducing engine wear;
not have to worry about post cat o2 sensors/codes; loose the ability to monitor one cam shaft for deviation from ideal.

BYprodriver 03-21-2020 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maytag (Post 613702)
Thanks to all of you who've responded. this is helpful.

I've tried, unsuccessfully, to find a dealer who would flash the anniversary edition tune to my car, knowing that this would accommodate the larger MAF holder. The tune that I got from Vivid (VRTuning) ignores the o2 sensors, so it doesn't work to get me past the IM station.

I may determine that, as much as it's a PITA, it may be most simple to swap back in the 986 maf holder for IM testing, and then swap it back out.

(spare me the "save-the-earth" lectures.... look up what "lean condition" means) :cheers:
Seems you are always trying to insulate yourself pre-need from jerks yet you have no issue doing the same to anyone else.

I reprogramed my DME with my PST-2

maytag 03-21-2020 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BYprodriver (Post 613743)
Seems you are always trying to insulate yourself pre-need from jerks yet you have no issue doing the same to anyone else.

I reprogramed my DME with my PST-2
I know it's quoted.... but im'a do my best to salvage the energy I spent on this. ::sigh::

maytag 03-21-2020 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1thenaton1 (Post 613739)
you can't increase the diameter of the maf housing without adjusting fueling tables. MAF calculates the volume of air ingested using the velocity of the air past the sensor, which of course is a function of the size of the tube it's flowing through. The codes you are getting are generated in regular driving where the O2 sensors read lean/rich. At wide open throttle where the ECU is running on set tables (and not off of O2 sensor feedback), you will be running lean (increased airflow not accounted for because of incorrect maf housing size). Lean is mean, until it's not. Without monitoring this with a wideband O2 and updating to a custom tune you are asking for trouble, especially on track. What is you crazy ;)
All makes perfect sense. I wasnt aware that at full throttle it was a closed-loop, either. Good stuff.

So, do YOU know anyone local who'd flash me to a 996 ROW?

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BYprodriver 03-21-2020 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maytag (Post 613753)
Oh for hell's sake byp, doesn't matter HOW reasonable somebody is with you, you're going to continue to be the ass-hole cry baby, aren't ya? For Pete's sake man, grow up.
You're such a douchebag.

I've been hands off with you because you're so easily triggered, but when you volunteered into my thread, I thought "huh.... ok! Maybe he's finally letting it go!" So I simply responded to you as if you'd never been the dick-head you've been.

But it seems you just can't help yourself, can ya? Most people are a dick sometimes, some people are a dick most of the time. But you? It seems you're one of the rare breed who's a dick all the time.

I'm not going to descend to a place where i'd engage the actual content of your comment, because I refuse to legitimize it.

I'd appreciate it if we could go back to just ignoring each other?



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This is a bit of a wakeup call.

It's not somebody it's you! I seemed to be ok the last 13 years I have been on here!

maytag 03-21-2020 12:14 PM
..........

maytag 03-21-2020 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaykay (Post 613740)
Robert,



Perhaps slightly better performance and the proper match for the 987 MAF diameter; folks here are actively using it. Full disclosure: I have just changed from a third party tune to the stock 986S and planned to go to the 996 ROW. I am not sure about the anniversary tune and don't know anyone using it. I believe the anniversary is geared to the 68mm TB where as the 996 is geared to the 74mm.



You will: be able to start the car without depressing the clutch, reducing engine wear;

not have to worry about post cat o2 sensors/codes; loose the ability to monitor one cam shaft for deviation from ideal.
If it's no longer monitoring the post-cat O2 sensors, does that interfere with the IM testing? In my state (Utah) it's a plug- in test, not a sniff up the exhaust pipe.

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jsceash 03-21-2020 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadcammer (Post 613633)
I run it with a softronic tune. Runs a touch rich, but no issues or codes.
I'm running the same configuration. Same success no codes slightly rich.

maytag 03-21-2020 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsceash (Post 613772)
I'm running the same configuration. Same success no codes slightly rich.
Y'all running the softronic: that passes your local emissions? Or are these track cars?

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Starter986 03-22-2020 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maytag (Post 613782)
Oh for hell's sake byp, doesn't matter HOW reasonable somebody is with you, you're going to continue to be the ass-hole cry baby, aren't ya? For Pete's sake man, grow up.
You're such a douchebag.

I've been hands off with you because you're so easily triggered, but when you volunteered into my thread, I thought "huh.... ok! Maybe he's finally letting it go!" So I simply responded to you as if you'd never been the dick-head you've been.

But it seems you just can't help yourself, can ya? Most people are a dick sometimes, some people are a dick most of the time. But you? It seems you're one of the rare breed who's a dick all the time.

I'm not going to descend to a place where i'd engage the actual content of your comment, because I refuse to legitimize it.

I'd appreciate it if we could go back to just ignoring each other?
OK May... this is where I have to step in and offer up to you some advice.

If you're going to refer to people by name, at least demonstrate some respect.

Dick is spelled with a capital D.

Robert986 03-22-2020 07:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaykay (Post 613740)
Robert,

Perhaps slightly better performance and the proper match for the 987 MAF diameter; folks here are actively using it. Full disclosure: I have just changed from a third party tune to the stock 986S and planned to go to the 996 ROW. I am not sure about the anniversary tune and don't know anyone using it. I believe the anniversary is geared to the 68mm TB where as the 996 is geared to the 74mm.

You will: be able to start the car without depressing the clutch, reducing engine wear;
not have to worry about post cat o2 sensors/codes; loose the ability to monitor one cam shaft for deviation from ideal.
Thanks, the anniversary do have the larger MAF diameter but I guess the throttlebody might be the smaller one. So if one is going all the way (Airbox, MAF & TB) I can see the logic behind getting the 996 tune over the anniversary.

Quadcammer 03-24-2020 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maytag (Post 613782)
Y'all running the softronic: that passes your local emissions? Or are these track cars?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
no problems with the OBD2 plug in test in my state with the softronic. No codes found, all monitors reporting

jaykay 03-24-2020 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadcammer (Post 613933)
no problems with the OBD2 plug in test in my state with the softronic. No codes found, all monitors reporting
+1, but the standard 3.2 Softronic tune is geared for the stock MAF diameter

maytag 03-26-2020 06:30 PM
So..... because the end of the month is approaching, and my IM test is due, I went ahead and swapped back in the MAF holder I built when I did the swap originally.

This is the 986 maf holder, grafted onto the 987 tube, so that I could swap between them easily.

Cross your fingers this gets rid of those lean condition codes I've been getting. If so, then I'll work to find a way to swap in a 996 flash on my dme. (Thanks woody, I'll get that VIN to ya) https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...cccce8e3b1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a70cf2357d.jpg

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Robert986 03-27-2020 02:25 PM
When I see Maytags MAF-pics I remember a thought I had.. On the 987-MAF tube the mesh after the "air straightener" (the black plastic matrix) seems really tight, when I blow through it I get the feeling it really give some resistance to the airflow.

How bad would it be for the MAF to just remove the mesh all together? Actually I cannot really see the need for it since it´s placed after the air filter. Any thoughts?

blue62 03-27-2020 04:02 PM
The mesh smooths out airflow pulses across the MAF sensor. Makes the MAF sensor more accurate
Which makes fuel management by the DME smoother and more accurate.

jsceash 03-28-2020 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maytag (Post 613782)
Y'all running the softronic: that passes your local emissions? Or are these track cars?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
PA does minimal test ECU codes and sniffer as long as O2 trace is good car passes. I'm still street-able and passed inspection 3 years straight with my set up. 3.6L, 987 Airbox, 110 mm silicon connector pipeand reducer, 90mm MAF, 74 mm TB, IPD Plenmun (pebbled style). Pollished ballanced crank. H-beam carillo rods. 12.2 Compression ratio, #1 O2 i catless header, #2 O2 after 200cnt mid-pipe cat, Modified Special Edition Softronics Program. Edited fuel curve and map air for displacement. compression and MAF volume

Robert986 03-28-2020 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 614306)
The mesh smooths out airflow pulses across the MAF sensor. Makes the MAF sensor more accurate
Which makes fuel management by the DME smoother and more accurate.
Are you sure? As for now I´m not convinced, but open for any thoughts :-)

I have been thinking and reading.. and this is my guess right now:

1) The plastic black matrix serves as air-straightener, like a honeycomb-mesh.
2) The fine metal screen after the black matrix is a extra protection for debris that might have got past the air filter, protecting the MAF and engine.

Thus removing the metal screen would give less air flow resistance but less protection of MAF/Engine. I cannot see how the metal screen would smooth out air pulses, but what do I know?

I have seen others that replace the plastic and metal screen with a honeycomb with far less area, thus giving more flow. This should be a good thing in my book.

EDIT: @Maytag, please let me know if I´m destroying your original thread, that's not my intention.

maytag 03-28-2020 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert986 (Post 614361)
EDIT: @Maytag, please let me know if I´m destroying your original thread, that's not my intention.
You go right-on ahead. This is all applicable discussion.
And no politics.

I love it. ;-)

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Robert986 03-28-2020 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maytag (Post 614364)
You go right-on ahead. This is all applicable discussion.
And no politics.

I love it. ;-)

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
Brilliant! Cheers Sir! :cheers:

blue62 03-28-2020 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert986 (Post 614361)
Are you sure? As for now I´m not convinced, but open for any thoughts :-)

I have been thinking and reading.. and this is my guess right now:

1) The plastic black matrix serves as air-straightener, like a honeycomb-mesh.
2) The fine metal screen after the black matrix is a extra protection for debris that might have got past the air filter, protecting the MAF and engine.

Thus removing the metal screen would give less air flow resistance but less protection of MAF/Engine. I cannot see how the metal screen would smooth out air pulses, but what do I know?

I have seen others that replace the plastic and metal screen with a honeycomb with far less area, thus giving more flow. This should be a good thing in my book.

EDIT: @Maytag, please let me know if I´m destroying your original thread, that's not my intention.
If the mesh is just before the MAF sensor it is there for the purpose I stated. To smooth out air pulses.
I got the information from an article I read on MAF sensors. The article was by Bosch. They developed the first MAF sensors and also the first O2 sensors. So I tend to go with their information on those two sensors:D

blue62 03-28-2020 11:37 AM
Maytag I think you started this thread. I don't mean to Hijack it.
Robert986.
Go to Wikipedia. Type in Mass Flow Sensor. The article will explain how the various types of MAF sensors work and what they really measure. An indirect measurement of Mass flow. not volume.
Read down to the cold wire type of sensor it talks about the mesh screen and its function. Hope this helps.

Robert986 03-28-2020 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 614388)
If the mesh is just before the MAF sensor it is there for the purpose I stated. To smooth out air pulses.
I got the information from an article I read on MAF sensors. The article was by Bosch. They developed the first MAF sensors and also the first O2 sensors. So I tend to go with their information on those two sensors:D
I do appreciate your input, however I´m still not convinced. First of all, there are two parts, as I call them: the matrix and the mesh. So talking about "the mesh" without determining wich of the two doesn´t make it clearer.

If you talk about the black plastic matrix as "the mesh", then I kind of agree, this is there to smooth out, but not pulses, rather to straighten out a turbulent flow to make it more consistent for the actual sensor. I cannot see how the metal wire mesh would improve the smoothness after the air straigthener. If anything it might induce small vortexes by the vortex shedding effect.

I would love to be wrong, but I still believe that I´m correct. :-) Would you be able to find that Bosch-article maybe?

Robert986 03-28-2020 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 (Post 614391)
Maytag I think you started this thread. I don't mean to Hijack it.
Robert986.
Go to Wikipedia. Type in Mass Flow Sensor. The article will explain how the various types of MAF sensors work and what they really measure. An indirect measurement of Mass flow. not volume.
Read down to the cold wire type of sensor it talks about the mesh screen and its function. Hope this helps.
I did, "The mesh on the MAF is used to smooth out airflow to ensure the sensors have the best chance of a steady reading." No mentioning of pulses, however smoothing out. To my logic this must refer to the black matrix doing the "air straightning".

My idea is thus to remove the metal mesh but keep the plastic matrix, or rather change the matrix to a honeycomb doing the same work but less restrictive.


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