Catless wonder?
 

Hey y'all.
I've got a question about cats. My car is an '03 S, so, typical 4 cats.

I did away with the mid-pipe cats some time ago, and, of course, no problem-o.

Now I've purchased a set of headers. Installing them will leave me catless. This poses a problem when it's time for annual emissions testing.

Here's my question: the headers have a bung for an o2 sensor near the collector. Because it's easier to swap mid- pipes than it is the header, is it possible that I could put the first o2 sensor in the header, and then the 2nd sensor after the cat in the mid-pipe?

Do any of y'all have any experience this way?

Oh, and, if ya wanna debate the morality of increased emissions from my catless car, please start a new thread to do so. This car is 80% track-only.... but it still has to drive there. Plus: if I lived 7 miles west of here, I'd be in a county with no emissions testing.... seems a bit arbitrary, yeah?

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I went full catless about a year ago. I never tried the setup you're talking about, so I can't help you there. But, I'm going to tell you that I got lots of trouble with o2 spacers trying to eliminate the CEL. I finally went with a factory ROW tune and that fixed everything for me.

The factory ROW tune somehow passes domestic emissions testing, even though it's not monitoring cats?
I have an aftermarket tune I run most of the year, which doesn't monitor cats, and so at i.m. testing, it comes back "not ready".

Waddya know?

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UK cars have both lambdas in what you call the cat mid pipe.

If you wanted to try a science project, I'd give it a try. Theoretically, it should work.

The ROW tune in my 1998 3.6 Boxster passed emission testing in WI.

Oooohhhhhh...... I didn't know that.
So..... i wonder if i sourced two UK mid-pipes, complete with cats, and just swap those in at testing - time..... ?

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And in WI is that a "sniff" test? Or is it a plug-in to the OBD test?
(And how many "not- ready" are you allowed there? Did it show "not ready"? Or did it show pass on the o2 sensors?

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I was a state inspector here in Texas and we had to do an emissions test in the city I'm in (no smog). With the factory ROW tune the ECU does not monitor the cats so it will show "N/A" during testing when plugged in, as only the monitors that are enabled by the tune will show "ready" or "not ready". Some cars have more monitors enabled than others for some reason (some cars don't have an SAI system here in the US for example). So, all of my enabled monitors with the factory ROW tune were "ready" during testing with no cats. However, it will obviously not pass a smog test.

It's a plug in OBD test. I'll look for the last report tomorrow and will post the info if found.

Im confused by this, but probably just because of terminology. To me, "smog- check" and "emissions- testing" are the same thing. Both terms refer to testing, without distinguishing method of testing.

Is that how you're using the terms?

If so, then the ROW tune won't pass a plug- into-obd2 test in your county in Texas?

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When I said emission testing (no smog) I meant to test emission using only the plug in obd2 method for results, and smog testing is to also test emission by inserting the sniffer probe into the exhaust system.

In my county we do not do sniff testing (will result into a fail with no cats), but we only test emission using the obd2 plug in method (only checks if enabled monitors are “ready”). Inspectors here are also supposed to do a visual test but many are not well educated and can’t tell the difference between a cat, resonator and muffler (especially in quick lube stores) so most of them skip the the visual test.

Ok. I was hopeful that's what you were saying.
I'm ready to give it a try, I think.

Next question:
Is this just a simple flash? I have a flash tool that came with the tune I bought from VRTuning. I can swap back and forth easily between the factory tune and the custom tune.
If I can find the ROW tune file, is it that easy? Or must it be programmed to my car / VIN or something?

Or is it deeper than that?


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You need a PST2 or PIWIS or equivalent which has the files with which you can upload.

Just an FYI from my smog guy

If they are using a CA standard OBDII test there were some changes put in place last Nov. (all shops due to update by 2020)

They can tell if the DME has been flashed by checking the CAL ID and/or drive cycle count.

They now count the amount of readiness tests and can check if they go automatically to "pass".

They also now monitor live data while the car is running and compare it to manufacturer supplied data to look for any variances.

If you live in a CA compliant state (I think there is 15 states now?) and you drive a 2001+ vehicle you get to swap everything back to stock every 2 years now :(

This is good (but crappy) information. Do you know which states are on that list? M guess is that Utah is NOT, as we tend to be at the back-of-the-line on these sorts of things.

so then once that's done, can I upload my custom tune back-n-forth as I've been doing already, with the VividRacing tool? Or will I have to have another custom tune created to work with the ROW tune? (it sounds like what I'm changing with Vivid's tune must be fewer parameters (shallower) than the ROW tune).

I had the Vivid tune made after I went to a larger TB, 987 airbox, etc etc. How will the ROW tune play with those mods?

I believe it’s that easy. Not sure how easy it is to get the ROW file. Mine was done on someone’s PIWIS that had the option.

Sucks to be in CA. Luckily, they are not that advanced in TX. Not sure about Utah

Catless wonder?
 

Dan, this is exactly how I run my car. I lengthened my sensor wires in my harness with twisted pair wire (didn’t mess with the actual sensor wires) and have never had a CEL for it. Passed emissions three times now.

Hey! Alright then: that's the easy button!
Good man! Thank you!

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I think I'm going to build "extension cables". I have a spare harness.
Any reason not to? I assume I can solder these.... there's not a problem with added resistance, right?

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This is what I am doing as well as encuraged by good esults from forum.
What size wire you used on this exension?
I do have all the connectors now and plan to do the extensions probably next weekend.

Sort of late on this post, I have been running this same configuration in PA for 7 year No cells and inspection issues. Extended the wires on the second position cat's. I just cut the cable out of the original ones then soldered and shrink wrapped the splices. Then covered the wire in heat loom.

Catless wonder?
 

Soldering is fine and heat shrink. Make sure to slide the heat shrink on the wire before soldering both ends.
I used some harness heat tube I bought from DEI for the extensions.

I used twisted pair wire on the signal wires as the harness is also using twisted wire.

Signal wires are those marked I/J on the schematic.

Wire gauges are listed as 0.5mm or 1.0mm. You can use the closest larger aproxímate AWG size.

Schematic

1vK means 1 vor Katalysator or before Catalyzer.
1nK means 1 nach Katalysator after Catalyzer.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...823087886e.jpg

Fantastic, thank you P_Carfahrer :cheers:

so, do anyone you subscribe to the 'reference o2' stuff regarding continuity of the wire jacket?

I don't. I think that's a lot of voodoo, personally.

I know over the years and different models of cars I've sure had plenty of scabbed-together o2 sensors, with torn jacket, or NO jacket, and they seemed to be just fine.

I think we see things like this pop-up from people my age who perpetuate mystery surrounding things they don't understand. My generation was much happier with carburetors and cherry-bombs. :dance:

totally agree; the thread seemed to be going too smooth, however, so thought i'd throw some sand in the vaseline.

how about those who say that the post-cat o2 sensors are used to fine-tune fuel trims?

In the UK you can program these out to no I'll effect.

and some folks say their cars run rougher w a row tune.

I have a tune that doesn't monitor them, and I've noticed it runs very rich that way. But there could be other parameters in the tune causing that condition.


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I guess it's all relative. I never hear of any UK or Europe cars complain of rough running due to the standard mapping. I've had 2 Boxsters in standard tune, modded and remapped and never experienced any running problems.

me neither, but playing devil's advocate. i think it was brad roberts who made the statement. some ecus do use feedback from the second set of o2 sensors to refine the data from the first set, and i think the bosch units in our cars have that ability. whether they do or not is questionable. and if they did, realise that deleting the second set wouldn't result in big changes in afr, but rather slight changes, perhaps more erratic short-term trims, etc. here's a link:

https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/37442/is-the-after-catalyst-oxygen-sensor-used-for-engine-mixture-control

and here is info regarding how the o2 sensor accesses reference air via the wire sheath:

http://www.autotap.com/techlibrary/understanding_oxygen_sensors.asp

This thread has some comments which suggest to me that if I were to own a PTS2, I could flash the computer to a 996 ROW tune. (Thereby alleviating some issues I'm having, described in another thread)

Is this true? What else is needed? Where do I get the file to flash?

What ELSE does a PTS2 allow me to do, that my enthusiast durametric doesn't? I'm debating the $$.

Thanks in advance.

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If you get the PTS2 I'd like to claim the right of first refusal on the Durametric. ;)

The PST-2 has all stock flashes for all models it covers.

Some of things it can do:

recalibrate gas gauge
replace immobilizer while allowing existing keys to be used (assuming old data can be pulled)
replace DME
program new keys

Most of the above require VIN specific passwords available from the dealer's IPAS system.

This was briefly touched on, but yes.

Modern O2 sensors get their reference air from the tiny gaps between the wires and insulation. You can solder, crimp, whatever, but if you are doing the wire work between the sensor and connector, then you need to make sure not to block the reference air.

Crimp will have no issues, but solder might if you do it too close to the end of the insulation (the solder will flow down the wire a bit and fill all gaps, blocking reference air). The resistance thing is just a case of a bad internet rumor. ;)

Just make sure not to block the end of the insulation with a big glob of solder (or you could make a small nick in the insulation that ref air can be drawn through) and you’ll be fine.

I came to the same conclusion a few days ago. I've been chasing some odd codes, and I think I dicked-up the o2 sensors when I lengthened the wires, by sealing them up too tightly with Shrink-Wrap the entire length, from connector to connector (up and over the connector shoulders). I'm going to replace the after-cat sensors and build extension cables for them, instead of cutting them up.

For the record; I never would've believed it. As I mentioned below, I always chalked that up to voo-doo.

Does anyone make a bosch 02 sensor extension pre-wired with harnesses for plug and play/ ready to go for our 986?