Where do I go from here (IMS)
 

Well I just got my car back from the shop, did some major work, got through emmisions, it passed and it's running great.

But the shop, which is LN certified for the IMS retrofit, told me my engine is not a candidate due to cam deviations, one side is -4.8 and the other side is -7.6. No Ferrous metal in filter.

So what is my next move? Do I keep this car? Do I throw money at an engine that might be on the way out or do I just drive it, not worry about it and just do regular maintenance. Maybe buy a Dura metric and keep an eye on the cams and bail out at some point? Then I would be out the money I've already spent which is substantial.

I really love the car and it is in a somewhat rare color combination that I have not been able to find in another car over the last year.

Just musing here all opinions are welcome.

If the cam deviations are out past +/- 6 degrees you need to get the cam chain pads replaced that run between the cams. Its a bit of job to get these done with the engine in the car but much easier with the engine out. If you have no damage so far and it hasn't kicked a code (it probably will soon) but I would get it done before the chain goes through the last remaining bits of nylon and chews up the cam adjuster assembly (that could get costly)
H

I was about to say the same thing You have a 5 chain engine with a moveable set of pads between each pair of cams in the head The cam chain pads have been redesigned to last longer and are quite cheap like $15 per head . They require the cam covers be removed along with the cams and then retimed after installing the new pads. I,ve read you can do it with the engine in place but it would be a bear of a job, much easier with the engine out. The cel will trip when deviation gets to about 8 deg.

I thought about that but if my car is not a candidate for an IMS replacement is it worth dropping that kind of coin? Also I have read on other threads here that the CL doesn't come on until 12° deviation is that right? The pads themselves maybe cheap but the labor sounds like it would be north of $3000.

And then I still have the bearing to worry about

If you replace the chain wear pads, the car will come back into spec and become a candidate for the retrofit. We see this all the time, nothing unusual.

Between 8-12 degrees it will start coding; usually more towards 12 degrees.

That's what I was thinking too. But I'm guessing that along with the IMS that would be a repair bill somewhere around $7000? Is that in the ballpark? I've been thinking about doing it I just can't really make up my mind

I feel kind of like a gambler trying to decide if I'm in too far to quit or if I should just cut my losses now

What year? If its young 2000 build or older you probably have double row bearing whjch has a very low failure so just take a chance.

2001 Boxster. Could be either bearing but probably single row.

The problem of owning one of these cars is that the resale price has dropped low, but the maintenance or engine replacement costs have not. You need to make a decision; either put the money into the car to fix what is wrong and prevent future catastrophic failure so you can enjoy it for as long as you please, or sell the car before the cam deviations become critical and move on.

We have customers that face that decision regularly. We just had a 2001 Boxster leave the shop after major upgrades (dual row IMS Solution, clutch, pressure plate, dual mass flywheel, throw out bearing, RMS, new AOS, plugs, new front brake air ducts, upgraded oil pump pressure spring and piston, etc., etc.) that all in cost a significant portion of the cars resale value. But the owner, who is also the original owner, loves the car and intends to keep it for a long time. Now he is facing years of ordinary maintence and problem free driving. It is all where your head is at.

You said in your first post that you really love the car.... I guess the big question is do you want to keep it and keep loving it or sell it and possibly hate the next car or end up having to do all sorts of unexpected work to your next buy? Personally I don't think it will cost you more than 5K for the IMS and to do the variocam pads, but...
Decisions decisions :-)

I dont know. To make it right you need to invest what the resale value of the car is. I would just drive it till it dies.

I have already spent more than the car's resale value. You have all helped me to see that my only option at this point is to finish the job.

I will then recover my investment through the years of enjoyment the car will give.

That is exactly how you have to approach it. You will never get your money back, but enjoyment time (and peace of mind) is priceless.

How many miles do you have and how many miles do you drive per year?

All engines will fail at some point and if your car is already high in mileage, then the replacement IMS bearing may not be buying you any extra time or miles.

It has 118,000 miles on it and I drive about 5,000 miles a year total, mostly in the Boxster. It is currently my daily driver. I put 3,000 miles on the boxster last year, driving it every day. I've never had an engine fail yet, my Vanagon had 300,000 miles on it. I sold that last summer.

I also have a motorcycle I use sometimes.

Hi,

not shure about this decision. If you need a new clutch you need a clutch. And in my opinion that is the time when you should decide to do other things like IMS, chain rails, tensioners and so on.

Also if you have to do the chain rails as a workshop job to than afterwards do the ISMB, that totally burnt money, because you have to do some same things twice and so you buy some labour time twice.

The Durametric not always shows 100% right values on camshaft deviation. Just do it several times and you'll get several results. It's more like an indicator. If you want precise results on camshaft deviation you should measure the deviation right at the camshafts – which is possible.

A good running replacement engines costs less than 5K. While it's out of the engine you can do all repair and maintenance stuff easily.

So the question to me is would i spend lets say 9k in a car that is worth 10-12k if it's still running without problems? My opinion: no. Also keep in mind that there are a lot of other parts that wear and can fail besides the engine.

If the engine fails it fails. Maybe the situation will change if used engines raise in price. But at the moment i would go for a good used replacement engine that will be updated with a new IMSB, chain rails, chain tensioners, coil packs and so on.

Just my 2 cents

Regards, Markus

I would probably do the clutch if needed and at that time determine if you have the single or double row bearing.(you only need to look at the flange). My 2001 had the double row and it was as good as new when I replaced it. If double just drive it ,if single consider replacing it without a warranty ( I think they only refund part cost anyway) because of the cam deviation. You have no metal in the filter so the bearing is likely not failing yet even if the chain rails are tired.. With over 100k on the car already save your money for another engine or car

I just did exactly this with mine (with the exception of the oil pump work and brake ducts, which I would like to know more about...), in addition to wheel bearings, water pump, idler pulleys, drive belt, thermostat, and chain tensioners. The work cost me as much as I paid for the car. But here's the thing: my wife and I love, love, love this car like no other. It is a true source of joy for us to drive this little roadster. Totally impractical and expensive. This is the emotional approach to the dilemma.

OTOH, San Rensho has an excellent point. With notable exceptions (like air-cooled 911s), most cars are hideous investments. You will never get back one nickel you put into them. And these old Boxsters are some of the worst for maintenance costs, and they're definitely not appreciating in value. Maybe the smart and practical approach is to spend as little as possible on them and drive them until they die.

Some years back, Porsche released an updated spring and piston for the oil pump, with a bevel on the top edge of the piston and a slightly stronger spring which improve the oil pressure slightly, particularly at low RPM's when hot. Parts are about $20, and it is a 5 min. swap when the car is in the air. Part numbers are 997-107-125-01 for the spring, 996-107-127-53 for the piston, and 996-107-123-50 for the crush washer.

The front brake ducts are a GT car item, and much bigger than factory for improved brake cooling, particularly at the track. Funny bit is that again they are less than $20 for the pair; part numbers are 997-341-483-92, and 997-341-484-92 (left and right). As the old units pop right out, these larger units are another 5 min. project.

I'm looking into getting an updated diesel truck. It was pretty scary reading about the expense and frequency of repairs on some of the newer models. The complex tech that goes into newer vehicles for safety, emissions, and efficiency comes at a steep price. Maintaining the Boxsters is starting to look relatively cheap.

JFP, thanks a million! I'll be doing both soon. Nothing better than cheap upgrades that actually work.

Hello JFP in PA,

are we talking about number 5, 25, 26?

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1465409818.jpg

Thanks & regards, Markus

These are the parts I used. Parts are #25 & 26 in Marcus' drawing. The new piston with the bevel is the on right.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1465411547.jpg

There have been a lot of great ideas posted on this thread but there is another variable to be considered, and that is what jobs is my mechanic willing to do on this car.

I own and manage a couple of apartment buildings in the area here and I've learned that there are some contractors that will do some jobs and others that refuse to do these jobs.

In the automotive world a perfect example of this would be the job of swapping in a used engine. Some mechanics simply won't do it, they don't want to take on the liability of an unknown engine I guess. Or maybe they just think it's a bad idea or not a cost-effective solution. And I understand, there is a valid argument to be made there.

But honestly if I had my druthers a low mileage engine swap would probably be what I'd do but finding someone willing to do it might not be possible. I just have to talk to my mechanic see where his head is at on this car and decide where I should go from there.

I definitely think I need to get the chain rail pads and varicam pads replaced and I'm going to push for that. If the current mechanic won't do it I will try to find one that will.

JFP I wish you were here in my town I would go to your shop in a heartbeat

I find it odd to suggest driving a car into the ground over a set of $15 chain pads. I realize that to pay someone else to do the job will cost a ton of money, but it argues more towards a DIY task.

JFP pointed out early that if the pads were replaced and the deviations brought into line that it may well be a candidate for a permanent bearing replacement. If anything that should sound encouraging.

I think these cars have a long way to go down the path of Porsche hatred (along with the 914, 924, etc) before someone "discovers" what a ton of fun they are.

Yes, just be sure they are the updated part numbers.

Don't be afraid of getting the wear pads done, just about any competent Porsche equipped shop can do it, it is a common repair item, and typically brings the cam deviation values right down near zero.

Only problem with doing this DIY is that you need some special tooling (what else is new) and an understanding of how to reset the cams (ditto). Other than the tooling, it is not difficult, but it is time consuming and attention to detail is a necessity. Several people have done it and it has been written up on multiple websites, along with some real creative "homemade" alternatives to the factory tooling.

Hello,

thanks, JFP in PA and 911monty!

Edit: checked parts numbers. Only piston changed. But it makes sense also to change the spring.

Well, if you don't have access to special tools or you're not able to fabricate the needed tools yourself and have somebody to do the job, than i think you run into cost problems, because even independent Porsche workshops ask in general for a lot of money, just because it's a Porsche. And so it is quite expensive to maintain these cars if you need a workshop to do it.

I do all maintenance stuff myself and do also more advanced jobs on the car. To me it is fun to do things like that, because i can see results immediately - which i don't do in my job often. But it takes time and a lot of research to do it right. And sometimes i have to do things twice. Like my axle boots, where i put too much grease in it and at a longer ride on the German Autobahn at vmax one axle boot just "exploded". :D ;) But this time i know how to repair it and it will take less time than last time. Also now i have an Oetiker plier.

Regards, Markus

DIY is not an option for me. I don't have the time, tools, space or know- how to do that job.

JFP how many hours would you estimate to do chain pads both sides .I expect its only about $50 in parts. plus an oil change perhaps more is usually needed.

Obviously, that depends upon who is doing the work, but I would budget for 10-12 hours.

Thats a little less than I thought I was expecting 15-18. The local Porsche dealer charges $110 an hour so with parts it,s about a $1500 repair. then do the IMS bearing and a clutch then whole works probably less than but approaching 5k. I had the sense from earlier in the thread that the repairs would be more than the car was worth.

Is this Chris's German? Not sure where in the PNW you are...

I know Chris's German can do the cam tensioners/pads with the motor in the car, which saves $$ on labor.

I had them do the IMS/RMS/clutch/flywheel/AOS/GBOX 2nd gear popout kit/water pump/thermostat/serp belt/WTFBBQ on my '02 986S last summer. All of that work wasn't $7000.

No it's not Chris's. I'm in Portland. And I was probably guessing a little high in my estimates.

A good Porsche shop in Portland isn't cheap but there are a few good ones. I use Marque Motors on Macadam for this type of thing. They are an L&N certified installer.They did my IMS bearing last year and I am happy with the work. Probably could have gotten it done cheaper but you get what you pay for. A couple other shops I've heard good things about (but haven't used myself) are Matrix Integrated and Stuttgart Autotech. Are any of these shops the one you used?

Yeah it was Marque Motors. Definitely a higher level of service there than my old shop.

The other issue is are you absolutely sure the cam timing is out? The motor has to be hot, not idling in the garage until the temp guage goes to "normal" hot. It has to be taken out for an hour drive and caned hard hot. Ridden hard andput to bed wet hot.

Bank one timing on my car would easily vary 2 degrees from cold to hot.

No I'm not sure they are out that far. I am going off numbers provided by the previous shop I used, which I have stopped going to. I am sure they did not follow the correct warm up procedure.

But I do have about a half second of chain rattle on cold start which means I should probably look at the chain pads.