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Old 06-09-2014, 04:40 AM   #1
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Noisy lifters

My 03 S has developed a noisy clicking/ tick tick tick sound that my mechanic describes as noisy lifters. I have done a fair amount of research on the topic, and I do agree with the diagnosis.

There are a couple if differences from the norm however. First, it happens more so after the car is warm, not at cold start-up. I don't detect any noise at cold start up. Also, the sound goes away when revving the engine, which is what you'd expect as the oil pressure is increased and the oil is forced into the lifters.

Before going down the path of an expensive fix, I'd like some thoughts on the above. Also, one thing that is not clear from the research here or on the other boards is what are the ramifications of doing nothing? At least for awhile. Can there be catastrophic engine failure or just general power loss due to the valves not engaging all the way (as a result of the stuck lifters)?

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Old 06-09-2014, 08:02 AM   #2
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Or its got a failing cylinder... If you drove the car over this past winter in Pennsylvania and started it up in those extreme temperatures, I'd ensure a thorough diagnosis is carried out. AS failing cylinder with the M96 sounds EXACTLY like a bad lifter. It will fool even the best, most seasoned Porsche technician.

We are seeing this occur all over North America and folks are wasting money to address lifters when thats not the problem. They won't realize thats not the problem till the lifter job is done and the noise is still there..

Diagnosing the failing cylinder is also not simple, and standard procedures for diagnosis won't work. The engine will still pass a leak down and compression test while in the early stages of cylinder failure, and it will even pass a bore scope test many times.

Approach with great care, I have a Pittsburgh car here right now that suffered this failure, was misdiagnosed and 8K (wasted) later it had to come here to be resolved.
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Old 06-09-2014, 08:28 AM   #3
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Thanks Jake. How would my mechanic diagnose? He is a very skilled guy, and Porsche certified. Not at the dealer but his own shop (formerly with the dealership).
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Old 06-09-2014, 11:11 AM   #4
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Can you post a sound bite? I have an intermittent, random faint knocking sound at idle that cuts in and out when it is present....so random that I have to wonder if it is something external that is loose. The time signature will change with a constant idle speed

it's been present for a while. The car is not driven during the winter months.
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:07 PM   #5
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Posting a sound bite won't work as I am technically challenged that way. But it is a constant tick tick tick tick at a fairly quick pace.
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:31 PM   #6
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injectors?
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:05 PM   #7
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Posting a sound bite won't work as I am technically challenged that way. But it is a constant tick tick tick tick at a fairly quick pace.
Which could be a cylinder.
Can't tell you how the mechanic should move forward... It's his responsibility to stay on top of these new bits of info.. I do offer classes :-)
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:12 PM   #8
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Tick tick boom.
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:12 PM   #9
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Tick tick boom.
Hey.. Thats my line!
LOL
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:15 PM   #10
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Hey.. Thats my line!
LOL
I grasshopper. You master.
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Old 06-09-2014, 03:17 PM   #11
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Not injectors in my case more like a random rattle that than steady tick tick of injector noise
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Old 06-10-2014, 03:35 AM   #12
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Jake, I will pursue this with my local techs, but why would cold temps affect the cylinders, and if it affected Boxster engines, why would it not affect any other other Porsche engine or any car engine for that matter? What makes the boxster engine susceptible to this?
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Old 06-10-2014, 04:52 AM   #13
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Jake, I will pursue this with my local techs, but why would cold temps affect the cylinders, and if it affected Boxster engines, why would it not affect any other other Porsche engine or any car engine for that matter? What makes the boxster engine susceptible to this?
This has impaired all modern Porsche engines to include the Cayenne and even the 9a1. Its also occurring to many other European engines, and I am currently developing a cylinder restoration processor the E55 AMG engines, too. They are failing from the same issue after this harsh winter.

This failure is not new, its just more wide spread after this past winter. We normally only see these occurrences from Canadian owners, and we've been seeing them for years. I currently have 3 Canadian Porsches here with two more on the way, and we just shipped one back home to Nova Scotia two weeks ago.

We developed the "fix" for this as our very first M96 development. Few others across this Continent have experienced it, because they do the lifters and when that doesn't solve it, they just sell the car, or send it to us after everyone else gave up on figuring it out.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:52 PM   #14
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"Failing cylinder" is an extremely vague term and useless.

No compression due to poor valve seal?

Cylinder wall wear or damage?

Failed piston rings?

Piston pin wear/failure?

Rod bearing wear/failure?

Any of these could fit the vague term.

What's the real story?
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:36 PM   #15
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Of course, it could always be a lifter, but today it pays to assume the worst and hope for the best. If not you spend thousands to replace lifters that were never the problem, then you still have a problem that costs thousands more to repair.

Cylinder failures are often associated with cold weather operation, due to improper running clearances set by the factory, coupled with forged pistons. This faille has landed more engines at our facility as of late than any IMS Bearing related failure, and thats probably because people don't know how to diagnose it. Only 1 out of 6 of these engines that come our way comes here first before someone else throws a set of lifters at it, only for the problem not to be repaired.

Conventional leak down and compression tests and even bore scope these will NOT detect this issue, because the failure initially begins well below the point of BDC and the skirt is where the wear starts, so often times it takes a few thousand miles of operating with a tcl before the engine starts to burn oil. When that happens it will then progress to misfires rather quickly. Again, these are classic lifter symptoms, which will send most technicians into a tailspin.

The temperatures over this past winter took this issue that we normally only see from Canada and the upper mid-west and Northeast, and spread it across the majority of North America. I am currently working on an in-depth article about this for a magazine, because it needs to be revealed to shops and enthusiasts that have never heard of it.

These photos and associated text and captions explain it well. This engine failed at 27K miles after being used in the winter in Ohio, beginning in 2009 when this engine was installed as a factory crate Porsche replacement.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.644486948912437.1073741842.184464434914693&type=3
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:02 PM   #16
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Jake what is your experienced distribution of occurrence on M96 engines?

2.5, 2.7, 3.2 vs model year
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Old 06-11-2014, 06:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Raby View Post
Of course, it could always be a lifter, but today it pays to assume the worst and hope for the best. If not you spend thousands to replace lifters that were never the problem, then you still have a problem that costs thousands more to repair.

Cylinder failures are often associated with cold weather operation, due to improper running clearances set by the factory, coupled with forged pistons. This faille has landed more engines at our facility as of late than any IMS Bearing related failure, and thats probably because people don't know how to diagnose it. Only 1 out of 6 of these engines that come our way comes here first before someone else throws a set of lifters at it, only for the problem not to be repaired.

Conventional leak down and compression tests and even bore scope these will NOT detect this issue, because the failure initially begins well below the point of BDC and the skirt is where the wear starts, so often times it takes a few thousand miles of operating with a tcl before the engine starts to burn oil. When that happens it will then progress to misfires rather quickly. Again, these are classic lifter symptoms, which will send most technicians into a tailspin.

The temperatures over this past winter took this issue that we normally only see from Canada and the upper mid-west and Northeast, and spread it across the majority of North America. I am currently working on an in-depth article about this for a magazine, because it needs to be revealed to shops and enthusiasts that have never heard of it.

These photos and associated text and captions explain it well. This engine failed at 27K miles after being used in the winter in Ohio, beginning in 2009 when this engine was installed as a factory crate Porsche replacement.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.644486948912437.1073741842.184464434914693&type=3

Jake, is there any other way to check this besides taking the engine apart? Shouldnt the worn piston debris show up in the pan or in the filter?

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