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http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1388717656.jpg
It looks like there is plenty of space between the case wall and the end of the IM shaft for a tube in this picture. But is the shaft pushed back I wonder. Another way to get to the oil may be through one of the lower bolts. |
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Anything that disturbs the oil, in any way will lead to added windage.
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The thinking is to just try to keep a low level of oil behind the bearing, just a supplement to the oil feed the engineers already provide. This would be a very low pressure, low volume pump. I imagine much less than 1 psi and on the order of 1 liter per hour. I drew the seal a little better to show how it is trimmed near the center race to hold oil until it reaches a certain level. I am looking at this as more of a drip system, not a fire hose. |
Spallation seems to be the primary cause for IMS failures. Installing unsealed dual row ceramic bearings reduces it to nil. Although close, the same would be true for single row bearing installations if they had greater load carrying capacity.
So Walter what problem are you trying to solve here? Are you trying to find a lower cost alternative to the IMS Solution which fixes the IMS problem for single row cars because it distributes dynamic loads over a very large area? |
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One issue that leads to wear is longitudinal thrust loads and the ball bearing trying to control them while providing radial support as well. With bank #1 dragging the IMSB sideways and the IMS Tensioner paddle doing the same all these forces challenge both axis of the assembly. |
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I am liking this setup.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1388788500.jpg http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1388788524.jpg I may have shown too many holes, but it illustrates various routes that may be possible to collect drain-off. |
It would be nice if you could miracle those passageways into place.
I don't concur with this logic about removing oil from the area any more than delivering oil to the area and keeping a ball bearing in place. How do you foresee testing this theory? Do you realize how long it will take to gather trend data that supports if it works or if it doesn't? Ever taken apart an M96? |
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http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1388856896.jpg I have an NSK DDU on order. |
Having now seen all kind of tricks RE "the remedy of the IMSB", I take it that nobody really understand the "real" cause of failure of the IMSB? Would that be correct?
Lack of lubrification, high pressure, oil contaminations, driving style, luck/bad luck, karma, or all of these combined maybe? I respect all those who have brilliant ideas like Walter but man, no prototyping, no testing, no data acquisitions methods, not even a simulation..... you guys have a lot of courage drilling these things |
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Of course, I'd hope that you know about a durometer and how to use it, and why. We were doing the tests that you are now way back in 2007 and they continue as we develop oils with Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oils, from scratch. Quote:
We are waiting as long as we can after the holidays… However I did recently spill the beans about it in a 5 page interview in a certain publication. :-) Trust that Gen 2 is NOT "better" than the IMS Solution; nothing will be, because nothing else removes the wear components from the equation. Gen 2 is better than Gen 1, and is a mid price point thats far superior to anything else at the same price. In fact, Gen 2 is the same cost as it could cost to simply "spray oil" onto your OEM bearing and accepting all the compromises that come with that. |
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After days and days soaking in oil without a trace of the seal leaking, it appears the Nachi seal is not able to hold back the oil when a torsional load is placed on the bearing. After 24 hours of placing a load so that the inner race is not parallel to the outer race, oil is appearing inside the bearing.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1389203432.jpg |
NSK 6204DU after 40 minutes in oil bath, filled with oil.
The box it came in says DDU, but the seal only says DU. http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1389380295.jpg The Nachi seal appears superior to the NSK seal when viewed under a magnifying glass. |
I am considering the possibility of bonding a supplemental seal to a bearings original seal.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1389464060.jpg One possibility would be to bond a trimmed-down commercially available seal to the existing seal. http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1389463713.jpg Another possibility would be to bond a piece of sheet rubber to the existing seal, and machine a step on the flange which could be done on any good lathe in a few minutes. Supplemental seals might be able to bond to original rubber seals using the same bonding agents that are used to glue O-rings together. Rubber original seals could be bonded to the outer race using a good rubber-metal bonding agent like E6000. I have some rubber-to-rubber samples soaking in oil before I try to tear them apart. Bonding a supplemental seal to a metal original seal (Z or ZZ) would probably be the best, but a rubber-to-rubber seal would probably be the best bond. |
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I give you this, you are brilliant. Sounds like a bullet proof idea |
irrelevant. .delete
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So the oil pump is driven by the IMS shaft. How about a small oil passage through the hex key from the oil pump to the interier of the IMS shaft and an open bearing at the other end? Plenty of oil, and might be an easy mod. plus your stealing oil from the best place possible.
A small hole in the oil pump driven gear connecting with a passage through the center of the hex drive key, and another small hole through the IMS end fitting at the bottom of the hex drive hole would do the trick. Couple that with a creamic bearing for overkill. Voila! |
Now that is something even I would be afraid to try. I am more comfortable with things that can be easily set back to original if things don't work out.
But I am certainly interested in the idea. Could the oil from the pump be done without removing the IM shaft? I have been intending to experiment to see if oil in the shaft would affect balance. I would think not, it would just distribute itself evenly inside the shaft I would assume. |
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I may be a hard sell because right now grease is my first choice. Grease is good. If hope I can make grease a viable lubricant for the IMSB. When I saw how superior the Nachi seal is to any others, I realized that keeping grease in and oil out may not be impossible. |
If you look hard enough you'll find that a hex key modified for oiling has already been patented.
On top of that, it doesn't work efficiently, because of how the oil has to pass into it. One version of the IMS Solution was oiled in this manner. We oiled the OEM bearing in this manner during testing way back in 2007, but once the issue was conclusively determined NOT to be lubrication, we tabled it. Thats been the case with many more time than people know about. On top of that, if you want to create a stress riser that will waken the oil pump drive, just EDM or bore a hole through it. They break without any help, in stock form. |
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On to more pressing matters, any idea why a motor with fuel and spark won't run? What would you run down first? I'm draining thee old fuel, it did hit a few times but wouldn't catch. Ok - I'm done hijacking this thread.:D |
The patent is part of another claim.
Hell, we have even been patenting the bad ideas, because if we don't someone will "invent them" 5 years later and claiming they are the best thing since sliced bread. There are times when security means going absolutely over the top, which wastes money and drives the price of the final products up. When going through these processes we have to think like the enemy and consider any possible other way to reach a similar goal. We have three more patents filed at the present and two more ready to file. |
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Maybe try disconnecting the battery for a few minutes to reset the ECU? If I were to go with oil lubrication on the IMSB, I think I would try to pick up the oil right after the oil cooler outlet. There it is filtered and cooled. If I go with injected oil, I am going to take the cooler off and see if I can drill and tap a fitting into the oil passage that exits the cooler into the engine case casting. |
I think we all hijacked it!
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[QUOTE=Jamesp;380667 On to more pressing matters, any idea why a motor with fuel and spark won't run? What would you run down first? I'm draining thee old fuel, it did hit a few times but wouldn't catch.
Ok - I'm done hijacking this thread.:D[/QUOTE] Double check timing?? |
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oh, man!, I'm hijacking the thread again!
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IMS Bearing!, IMS Bearing! Phew! There, we're back on track.
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Walter…IMHO: any new design must also fix the single row OEM bearing’s Achilles heel, namely its relatively poor load carrying capacity compared to dual row ones.
This inherent weakness, not lubrication, explains why single row OEM bearings failed 8 times more frequently than their dual row counterparts. So if you or someone else could develop a more affordable design for single row shafts that matches the dual row’s load carrying performance, then owners could drive their cars around worry free for the life of their engines. |
From what I've seen, and this is simply gut feeling with - NO DATA - so I normally wouldn't say it,... the OEM single row bearings are adequate for the loads provided they have uncompromised grease lubrication. The dual rows are overkill and because of the additional load carrying capacity, can tolerate poor lubrication over a much longer time. Bearings tend to fail in an exponential manner. That means small changes in RPM, load, or other variables can lead to quick failures. I studied a case of police car alternator bearing failures. Turns out the additional electrical loads on a police car at idle was killing the batteries because the alternator could not keep up at idle. The solution?, a smaller alternator pulley so the alternator turned faster at idle. Going down the freeway those alternators were turning plenty fast. The result was repeatable bearing failures in the alternators.
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http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1389840254.jpg
Took a little time today to cut an IMSB flange for the supplemental seal and glue a piece of sheet rubber to the existing seal on a Nachi 6204. http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1389840340.jpg I have the setup soaking in oil as I type, except I went straight to the torsional load test with the vice grips. |
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James: if your 'gut' hypothesis were true, then failure rates of single and dual row bearings would be similar. They are not. Data submitted in the Eisen lawsuit showed single row bearings failed more than 8 times the rate of dual row bearings.
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Since 2007 we've known these issues were not related lubrication. |
Here is another priority for my IMS bearing replacement. Alignment.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1389890030.jpg If this flange were installed as-is, the bearing could very possibly be placed out of alignment, caused by the high spot on the bolt tang. After I install the bearing into the IM shaft, I am going to measure the distance from the bearing outer race to the surface that the flange bolts onto on the case to make sure the bearing is parallel with the case surface. Then I am going to take the seal off the flange and try to slip it into place to check that all the bolt tangs on the flange touch the case surface. If one or two tangs are high, not touching, I'm not sure what to do then but I guess I'll figure it out. Edit: Better yet, to check that the bearing seating surface inside the IM shaft is parallel to the case surface, I will take a little off a 6204 outer race outside surface so that the race will slide into the IM shaft bore easily. Then I can check for parallel of the race to case surface, before installing the actual bearing. But I will check the final installation of the bearing too. |
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