IMS Solution... Price?
 

Looks like the new IMS solution explained... I wonder how much the kit is to buy?
Anybody got any pricing yet.
Depending on price, I'm still thinking for the average guy the single IMS replacement is probably all the engine will ever need during its lifetime....
H

The IMS Solution - YouTube

IIRC, Jake told us about $1,600 for the kit, purchased from your indy. They are not going retail this time around.

2 answers.
1. The IMS Solution is presently only available at Flat Six Innovations (Jake Raby, the developer's business), so you have to ship him the car, or go there. I looked into it and I believe he said probably not until 2014 for independent installers, if at all (I deleted the email so I can't check). No "Preferred Installers" until they get trained in proper installation.
2. I'm pretty sure he quoted around $3500, including RMS and clutch and flywheel. He said they will only do it with the clutch and flywheel replacement.

I should probably have waited until Jake responded (he will), but I think that's pretty accurate.

Good job with the explanation.

The cost is 3,500.00 all inclusive for my version of the install, only carried out here at Flat 6 until further notice. This includes clutch kit, RMS, pre- inspection, post inspection and dyno. No hidden cost, it even includes oil and other incidental expenses.

We are now booked till May, this morning we were only booked till March ;-)

So far we have jobs on the books from as far away as Washington State, I don't think its possible to get further away and still be in the Continental USA.

Thanks for the explanation
:-)
H

Jake, is it the same cost for a Tip car? If so, what would that include? Coolant/Trans fluid since I don't have a clutch?

Ditto... I have an 04 boxster S special edition tiptronic approaching 40K that I'd be interested in getting done and I am only about 3 hours away from cleceland.

Tip cars are the same cost across the board. The added work associated with dealing with the Tip transaxle equals the cost of clutch components.

Mountainman, we consider 3 hours away to be local... We seldom ever get to deal with cars that close to our facility :-)

This begs the question, if for one reason or another, the IMS Solution is not available to some of us, is the the previous retro-fit IMBS replacement procedure obsolete ?

Its not obsolete and won't be; it just maintains the same ball bearing design and the compromises that go along with it.

The classic IMS Retrofit will continue to be offered, but we are only applying it to the dual row equipped cars as we are not marketing the dual row version of the IMS Solution. I feel when we invent new technology and develop it for our engines that its not fair to our customers unless we globally apply it to every engine that we touch that can utilize it.

Hi Jake, is the retrofit a wear and tear item that needs to be replaced on a set frequency?

What do you recommend for individuals such as myself who live too far away to have you do the IMS Solution, but want to take preemptive measures against IMS failure ? Quite, simply, should I do the IMS retro-fit, or keep my fingers crossed and wait until a qualified installer in my area can do the IMS Solution ?

I think for a stock motor the LN IMS bearing is all that's needed and just replaced with each clutch replacement and/or checked anytime you're in that area. The IMS solution is a great technology, but for the cost it should probably only be an option for jakes high cost high hp motors. I think this because there are other modes of failure that probably have a higher failure probability than the LN IMSB (such as the chain guides).

I could be wrong, and if I am Jake, can you provide some rough numbers as to what the likelihood of any of the other modes of failure are? Are they fairly low?

BTW I'm getting my LN IMSB installed next month.

Thanks for your response, but with all due respect, since my vehicle only has 20k original miles on it, I would hope to find myself in an assisted living community, more than I would the need to replace the IMSB more than once !

That's even more of a reason to get the LN IMSB, you drive so infrequently that the 50k mile maintenance interval on the LN IMSB will be in a long time. My car has 47k miles on it over 10 years. When I first bought it I drove it a lot more, now I hope to get 4-5k miles in p/year. I hope not to worry about it for another 10 years.

Ummn, thats not too far away.. The car can land here in one day for 450 bucks in shipping cost, maybe less if we get it on a truck bringing us more than 2-3 Porsches at once. I have cars here from 19 states at the present as well as two Canadian provinces and an engine from Hong Kong with another inbound from South Africa.

We consider anything on the east coast to be local work.

Other modes of failure do exist, 23 more to be exact. I did originally invent the IMS Solution for my engines where people purchase an engine that is fully updated. Most of these are not "High HP" as they generally make 25-50HP more than stock from displacement increases and efficiency gains. Unfortunately our engines are no longer the most expensive option, since the majority of OEM Porsche crate engines now cost either the same or more money and they come with high core charges.

I remember the days when my engine was 15K and the factory engine was 5-7 brand new and we still had more work than we could handle. The people that love these cars spend the money and always have, just like the days when we built 10K buck engines for 914s that weren't worth 3K bucks!

The choice is simple, if you want to keep the car for more than 50K miles, then consider the IMS Solution; if you don't plan on keeping the car that long just stick with the standard retrofit or an IMS Guardian. The only bad decision that an owner of an 01-05 car can make is to do nothing.

It doesn't matter to me which way you go, my job with the IMS Solution is over and no matter how many sell/ do not sell isn't any of my concern since I am only concerned with my engines and retrofits that we carry out here.What matters to me is removing the ball bearing design from every engine that leaves my facility~

With all due respect, I'm a little confused ? Prior to the invention of your IMS Solution, there's was every indication that the IMS retro-fit was the perfect answer to addressing the problem of IMSB failure. Now it sounds like it's become more or less a summary approach to the issue than a finite one. Indeed, the part about needing the IMS Solution if I desired to keep my vehicle beyond 50k miles is a bit perplexing. Again, with all due respect, unless there's a way that I can "miracle" my boxster to your location, after nigh on to 40k in mods (not the least of which involved a major body kit project), there's simply no way that my vehicle is going on a flatbed or trailer to anywhere - fancy transport companies notwithstanding. Having said that, it seems like my only option is to do the retro-fit. However, the overall impression that I've gotten from this thread, is that the effectiveness of the IMS retro-fit has been greatly downplayed by the IMS Solution.

Jake and Charles have never said that the ceramic bearing would last 200k miles. What they have stressed is how much better it is than the original OEM bearing/lube design. That is still what Jake is saying. And they have recommended at least inspecting the ceramic bearing at intervals (up to 50k now from about 30k in the beginning IIRC based on longevity experience acquired over thousands of installations).

Given the labor involved (either your time in the case of the ceramic or Jake's in the case of the Solution), you can either pay twice for the labor at expected longevity intervals for the ceramic or once with the Solution if you run say 70k+ miles.

And if you don't want to drive the car or trailer it to Cleveland GA, then currently you have several remaining choices:
- Do nothing
- Pelican (OEM like) bearing kit
- LN Ceramic kit
- Wait for the Solution to be available from an installer near you
- Fashion your own kit

People have written lots about the IMS Solution and IMSB. Here's a summary from my reading. It should help put the options in perspective. Please correct anything I may have gotten wrong from my review of bulletin board and web information

IMS Retrofit

1. Benefit: Ceramic bearing life much greater than original design; still has multiple wear points.
2. Availability: now
3. Cost of part: about $650
4. Installed cost: $2K to $3K depending if clutch / RMS replaced at same time
5. Installers: independent shops, some dealers, DIY
6. Reliability: High (dual row - no reported failures; single row - handful of reported failures, rate less than 1%)
7. Result of Failure: Major engine damage perhaps catastrophic damage
8. Maintenance: inspect at 50K or during clutch / RMS replacement whichever comes first

IMS Solution

1. Benefit: New design eliminates many wear points in old design reducing the possibility of failure to almost nothing
2. Availability: Unknown (estimates range from Spring 2013 to early 2014)
3. Cost of part: about $1500
4. Installed cost: $2.5K to $3.5K depending if clutch / RMS replaced at same time
5. Installers: Now - Flat 6 Innovations; later independent shops
6. Reliability: Predicted to be very high almost bullet proof
7. Result of Failure: Minor - engine noise
8. Maintenance: none

If you are greatly concerned that the IMSB might fail soon, ypu might want to replace it now with the IMS Retrofit now since the IMS Solution isn't generally available outside of Flat 6 Innovations. In 3 to 7 years, you can decide whether to upgrade to the IMS Solution or stick with the retrofit. If you aren't greatly concerned about a near term failure, but plan to replace the IMSB as a preventive measure, wait until IMS Solution is available. If you just want to get this all behind you now, schedule a IMS Solution job with Flat 6 Innovations.

Given the impending doom that has always been discussed with regard to the oem bearing, as I see it, I have one or two options. I can either cross my fingers and hope for the best or proceed with the IMSB retor-fit. Waiting for the IMS Solution to become available in my area any time soon is not a viable option.

All I would change from your explanation of each option, is that the LN IMSB doesn't have multiple wear points. Its actually 5x stronger than the Porsche IMSB. There is an inherent fault in the motor design that causes these bearings to wear. There are other wear points in the motor (23 other areas) and the slow failure of any of these other areas may quicken the failure of the IMSB by introducing foreign objects into the bearing race.

JD, I didn't realize you had $40K in mods done to your car. Given that information I might send the car to Jake. My car is a bone stock 02 2.7 that I have owned since its arrival to the USA. I have $44K in acquisition costs and $3K in mods (half of which I can easily remove and sell). I was thinking of buying a motor from Jake, but decided to save the money instead as I don't really need more of a performance car given the amount of time I drive it. Instead I decided to service it and cross my fingers that nothing else breaks after the LN IMSB is installed as I think the frequency of other failures is quite low.

+ 3rd option is the one you have chosen for the 4 years the IMSB retrofit has been available. :dance:

The single row bearing has had a 50K recommended service interval since it was released, that has never changed and is stated on the LN website, where it has been since 2008. The fact that some people didn't read this doesn't surprise me. The fact that some people did read it, but improperly perceived it also does not surprise me.

I don't think that most of you realize that these units will be sold through your local shops in the future through their parts supply houses. The fact is during the initial swarm of installs we are only carrying out installations here (at Flat 6 Innovations), which means or at least the next 4-6 months no one else will have access to the technology. This is THE SAME thing that we did with the LN retrofit bearing when it was released as it is imperative that we use practical application experience to devise the installation directives and support programs for installers that will be tasked with the life of your engine. If they make one mistake, its our reputation that pays for it. I do not take that lightly and it is absolutely imperative that we experience every complication/ challenge possible here before units are employed elsewhere. I won't lie, doing this also helps pay me back for the YEARS of development that have gone into this product here at my facility.

Doing things in this manner is not the simplest, nor the most lucrative, but it is the way that we avoid errors that lead to pissed off customers with issues. Installers of this technology will have more processes that must be carried out than the standard retrofit, because the unit must be fed with clean oil at initial start up and etc. The work must be done in an absolutely clean work area with no debris present and it must be treated more like engine surgery than any standard retrofit. What is "simple" to some people/ shops is actually really difficult.

Its this straight forward:
Take advantage of the technology now and have the same hands that carried out all the test work install the IMS Solution into your engine, or just wait until your local shop can get the units through their supply system.

The only choice that doesn't exist is DIY installations.

Or just utilize the classic retrofit that costs less money but is sold with a 50K mile service interval. Thats all.

As far as shipping cars, we have connections with PROVEN companies that we have worked with for years. We have ZERO local customers and everything comes in from out of state. I have tasked these same people with the tasks of moving my personal cars and have done so without any complications. One of our shippers (applewood Motorcar) usually hauls Boxster and 996s to us in the same haulers that are filled with new Maserati's, Ferraris and Lamborghini's inside of. Shipping is not difficult, in fact I have one employee that is tasked with those logistics as his primary task, he shipped one back to Massachusetts this morning and just picked another up from Florida a few minutes ago to replace it with. I wish everything was as simple as shipping vehicles.

Jake, I am a little north of asheville, nc, probably 3 hours or less from you, and I have an 08 boxster S with 30K on it that I am not too worried about (IMS wise ), an 04 boxster S limited edition with 40K on it that I will probably want you to do the IMS solution on in the near future and an 02 C4 that already suffered an IMS failure at 46K miles leading to a new engine from the local dealership. I now have about 24K miles on the new engine and I have no idea what type bearing the new engine had in it when it was installed. Is there any way to tell from the serial number on the engine or is it just a change it anyway kind of thing. The engine was replaced about 2 1/2 years ago. thanks for any insight you can offer.

Meaning ??

That engine has the M97 bearing which is not serviceable at all. All new and reman engines provided post 2006 have the M97 bearing, even if they are M96 based.

Engine # ID in regard to bearing style/ application does not exist and the ones that are out there have proven to be absolutely inaccurate.

Thanks Jake for the info. The access to info like that is one of the big advantages of this forum. I have found that getting information out of a dealer on issues like that is most difficult and frustrating. Not sure if they have limited knowledge or just are reluctant to share. I'll be in touch in a few weks to schedule the 04. Got to slowly prepare the wife so I don't also have to buy an additional $3500 worth of furniture.

You wouldn't be the first, my first Boxster cost me a mink coat ... not that she forced the issue but, since she had suggested I buy the Porsche I had been looking at for years, it was only right I suggest she buy the coat she always wanted.

When she is happy...

I am lucky.. My Wife wears the race suit in the family and loves Porsches more than I do!
:-)

Is that possible :eek:?

Its a reality. She isn't bad for an accountant, most of them don't hold multiple Land Speed Records in a 911.

Jake, I have a 2000 Base with a manufacture date in late August of 1999. As I understand it, the 'IMS' solution is not available for the earlier twin row bearings; however, there is no way to tell whether my bearing is the older twin row, or the later single row without disassembly. If I order the IMS update assuming it to be twin row and my mechanic discovers on disassembly that is single row, I will need to have my car reassembled then shipped from Ontario, Canada to your shop for installation of the IMS Solution, then shipped back to Canada. Or am I missing something? In those circumstances, would the IMS update still be available if it turns out that I have the single row bearing?

Brad

Aren't you supposed to take the trans off and look at the narrow/wide IMS flange seen in pictures here What IMS do I have? | IMS Retrofit to see if you have a single row or double row before ordering as the kits aren't returnable.

And assuming you aren't the original owner and thus could have a replacement engine you didn't know about, how long you've had the car could prevent you from having the third generation IMS or thrust you into the possibility of having one. You ID the 3rd generation by the 22mm nut.

Mike, I have bills from the original owner and the engine numbers match the body (to the extent that they would denote a very early 2.7) so I feel safe in concluding that the engine was not replaced. I agree that, as engine numbers are not reliable, one is supposed to disassemble to determine whether it is a dual or single bearing. In the past this was not a problem as the ceramic bearing was available for both. Now they are only available for the earlier (double) and hence, after disassembly by my mechanic, I can only order a bearing if I have an earlier d. If not, I need to have the car re-assembled and shipped (or the engine removed and it and the transmission shipped), to and from Ontario, Canada. Or am I missing something?

Brad

as far as i know, the ceramic bearing from LN is available in both the single and the double raw configuration.
order the bearing only after the flywheel was removed, and you can see which one you need.
the "final solution" is available only for the later style single row, and contently available only at flat6.
so this way or the other, your mechanic cant do the job for you (yet).

Unfortunately, with a 2000-2001 car with the original engine, there is always some question which style bearing is in the car. That said, it is not that much of an issue to take the car apart and then overnight the correct unit. There is not much recourse to doing it this way, other than to buy both styles and try to return the unused unit.

No, there is no problem with disassembling then couriering the part. I had understood that as of now, one could only order the upgraded ceramic bearing for the double row. If you can order either, then there is no change and I won't need to ship out the car if it turns out to be the single.

Brad

LN's site still lists both style bearings (single and dual row), and I have not heard of any plans to discontinue the single row style.

Another IMSB related question. I was going to have a "Preferred Installer" in Pasadena CA put an LN ceramic IMSB in my 2003 Boxster S that I recently bought, for peace of mind. Then, low and behold, today I discovered the service booklet with the owner's manual, which says the engine was replaced in October of 2006 (not IMSB related). My question is, what should I do? I know that after 2005, the engine cases need to be split to install the IMSB. Is my only reasonable recourse to get the engine number and see which bearing it needs? I don't want the installer to pull the transmission and clutch, only to find out that I don't have the single row bearing. I don't need a clutch, it was just recently replaced, and the dealer said the IMSB looked fine, whatever that means. Suggestions?

If the engine was replaced in October of 2006, it has the non-serviceable oversized IMS bearing that would require a full engine tear down to replace. But you still have some options: Add a Guardian warning system, which would alert you should the bearing (or other major component) start to go south. Switch to a high ZDDP full synthetic oil, add the LN spin on filter and magnetic drain plug. If at any time in the future the trans has to come out, like a clutch job, have the rear seal removed from the OEM IMS bearing so it gets splash lubrication. Any, or all, of these would help in the long term.