ROW M030 suspension stiff enough for slicks? - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

Bigsmoothlee · 10-15-2012, 06:00 AM

Long story short, im planning to run autoX and DE events next season on slicks.
Is this ROW M030 stiff enough? I really want to avoid buying the whole kit, getting a slight improvement, and then having to buy a full coilover setup.

blue2000s · 10-15-2012, 06:41 AM

How experienced are you at track driving?

Topless · 10-15-2012, 08:36 AM

Gentle suggestion to consider a more forgiving track tire.

Racing Slicks do offer the highest grip level within a very narrow performance window and heat cycle out after 1-2 days. That means a fresh set of $1500 tires every weekend. One big spin and they go straight to the dumpster.

They will also likely overpower your M030 suspension and you will need about -3 degrees of negative camber F/R. If you are pursuing a National Championship this might makes sense. For local DE/AX not so much.

Other choices with excellent grip and heat characteristics but last much longer:
RA-1s- Good for about 50 HC or 10 days.
NT-01s- Good for about 50hc or 10 days.
MPSC- Good for about 20hc or 4 days

j.fro · 10-15-2012, 10:47 AM

Are you thinking about running the Hoosier A6 tires? Lots of folks in SCCA stock classes are running those and doing very well.

grubinski · 10-15-2012, 11:20 AM

My advice would be that if you're going to run on R compound DOT tires or slicks, you had better do something about making sure your oil pressure stays high enough. If I was going to track *my* car on such sticky tires, I'd probably fit one of the available deeper sump setups.

Kroggers · 10-17-2012, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topless

MPSC- Good for about 20hc or 4 days

What is this based on? Do you have some documented information on this or is it based on your personal experience?

Not saying you are wrong, but I manage to make a set of MPSC last a full season here in Finland - that is 6 race weekends and several practice sessions in between the race weekends.

Topless · 10-17-2012, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kroggers

What is this based on? Do you have some documented information on this or is it based on your personal experience?

Not saying you are wrong, but I manage to make a set of MPSC last a full season here in Finland - that is 6 race weekends and several practice sessions in between the race weekends.

Lap times just begin to fall off after about 20 HC here in SoCal. By 30 HC they might be 2-3 seconds slower. They still have tread material but they are no longer fast. It's like losing 50hp. We have very high track temps here in the southwest so you may be able to run a bit longer in Scandinavia but 30 HC is surely outside the sweet spot. This is pretty well known:

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-gt2-gt3-forum/701565-michelin-sport-cup-general-s.html

Kroggers · 10-17-2012, 10:06 AM

Thank you for the link, interesting read.

At least one person on that discussion said that he drives them down to the cord, but it does look like most say max 35 - 40 heat cycles.

thstone · 10-17-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topless

Gentle suggestion to consider a more forgiving track tire.

Racing Slicks do offer the highest grip level within a very narrow performance window and heat cycle out after 1-2 days. That means a fresh set of $1500 tires every weekend. One big spin and they go straight to the dumpster.

They will also likely overpower your M030 suspension and you will need about -3 degrees of negative camber F/R. If you are pursuing a National Championship this might makes sense. For local DE/AX not so much.

Other choices with excellent grip and heat characteristics but last much longer:
RA-1s- Good for about 50 HC or 10 days.
NT-01s- Good for about 50hc or 10 days.
MPSC- Good for about 20hc or 4 days

I agree with Topless' advice. The ROW M030 suspension can't be set up to take maximum advantage of a true slick and therefore, you won't see the benefit that you might be expecting. A good DOT R-compound tire is your best bet with the M030.

If you really want the car and suspension to be track worthy, you'll have to go to full coilovers and then the car can be set up properly for race slicks.

Bigsmoothlee · 10-19-2012, 01:37 PM

My experience? Not too much. Ive only done a season of autoX ( almost every weekend ) and a few 1.5 endurance kart races

Im usually in the top 3 or 4 with the SCCA or PCA in my class, but I have a lot more improving to do. I do understand it takes years to autoX well, and ive just started.

I was hoping to slice off another 4-5 secs between sticky tires and suspension work, and develop more as a driver in the mean time.

It looks a set of coilovers are what im looking for.

Do the Hoosier A6s need 3 degs of neg camber? I dont know if GT3 control arms are in my budget this year.

thstone · 10-19-2012, 02:23 PM

My advice is to spend the money on seat time until you are running near the top of your stock class. When you can drive better than the car, THEN start upgrading it.

This week, on the British tv show "5th Gear", they took a rookie driver and compared her lap times as follows:

1. Stock car
2. ECU upgrade for more power (no other improvements)
3. Aftermarket exhaust for more power (no other improvements)
4. Stickier tires (no other improvements)
5. Stock car with professional driving instruction

Guess which was fastest? Yep, #5. At this level of the game, its almost all about the skill of the driver.

j.fro · 10-20-2012, 05:56 AM

The Hoosiers like -3 degrees, as do the Nitto NT01

MikenOH · 10-20-2012, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thstone

My advice is to spend the money on seat time until you are running near the top of your stock class. When you can drive better than the car, THEN start upgrading it.

This week, on the British tv show "5th Gear", they took a rookie driver and compared her lap times as follows:

1. Stock car
2. ECU upgrade for more power (no other improvements)
3. Aftermarket exhaust for more power (no other improvements)
4. Stickier tires (no other improvements)
5. Stock car with professional driving instruction

Guess which was fastest? Yep, #5. At this level of the game, its almost all about the skill of the driver.

I saw the same show and it made an excellent point--more seat time/instruction trumps HP/traction gains with the inexperienced driver.

Having said that, after spending a couple years doing auto-x on street tires, I immediately gained a couple of seconds when I moved over to Kumho Victoracers. Great for auto-x, no so great for DE's.

Which raises another issue-- track tires need to get to their optimal heat range for maximum traction; I'm not sure how easy it is to get to those temps during an auto-x if you're doing single laps with a waiting period in between laps and ambient temps aren't in the 90's.

blue2000s · 10-20-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thstone

My advice is to spend the money on seat time until you are running near the top of your stock class. When you can drive better than the car, THEN start upgrading it.

This week, on the British tv show "5th Gear", they took a rookie driver and compared her lap times as follows:

1. Stock car
2. ECU upgrade for more power (no other improvements)
3. Aftermarket exhaust for more power (no other improvements)
4. Stickier tires (no other improvements)
5. Stock car with professional driving instruction

Guess which was fastest? Yep, #5. At this level of the game, its almost all about the skill of the driver.

That's season 21, episode 1 for anyone interested in watching on your favorite streaming video web site.

Topless · 10-21-2012, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.fro

The Hoosiers like -3 degrees

... Which is why 1 DE day (50 laps) on Hoosier A6 tires and M030 suspension would thoroughly destroy $1500 worth of nice soft race rubber. A less than ideal plan. NT-01 and V710s are far more tolerant of "camber challenged" cars but still work best with -2 degrees at least according to my tire wear patterns.

Nitto NT01 R-Compound Tire - Test & Review - Popular Hot Rodding