Changing oil type question - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

clickman · 10-17-2010, 07:17 AM

I've been using Mobil1 0W-40 ever since I bought my 01 4 years ago. But after reading a number of threads regarding oil quality, I've decided to move to Castrol Syntec 5W-40.

Here's the question:

Is it a good idea to "flush" the engine the first time a new type of oil is used? I.e. drain the Mobil1, put in the Castrol, run it for a bit, then drain the Castrol and put in a new load?

Obviously I'd rather not do that, for the cost and PITA, but if it's important...

JFP in PA · 10-17-2010, 07:22 AM

Totally unnecessary; just drain it thoroughly and change the filter…..

Jake Raby · 10-17-2010, 10:49 AM

I've had great luck using a mineral oil to flush the system between changes of oils. This is something thats imperative when changing between different groups of oils.

As we work to finish the completion of our oil we've found it imperative to run a flush fill prior to a service fill of the new oil. This is because of the polymers that are found in some oils that are not compliant with other oils. When we sell the new oil, the first order will have a flush fill as well as a service fill...

Not all oils are the same, but I've always gotten better UOA samples in regard to the TAN when I have used a flush fill between changing oil types.

clickman · 10-17-2010, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

I've had great luck using a mineral oil to flush the system between changes of oils. This is something thats imperative when changing between different groups of oils.

As we work to finish the completion of our oil we've found it imperative to run a flush fill prior to a service fill of the new oil. This is because of the polymers that are found in some oils that are not compliant with other oils. When we sell the new oil, the first order will have a flush fill as well as a service fill...

Not all oils are the same, but I've always gotten better UOA samples in regard to the TAN when I have used a flush fill between changing oil types.

Whoa, Jake. Thanks for the input; please bear with me on questions:

Are you saying the Syntec is from a "different group" than the M1? So a flush would be recommended in this case?

How do you do the flush? What type of mineral oil and where can it be found?

What do you mean when you say "As we work to finish the completion of our oil"?

I know UOA is used oil analysis, but what's the TAN?

Thanks

Jake Raby · 10-17-2010, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Are you saying the Syntec is from a "different group" than the M1? So a flush would be recommended in this case?

Yes. The polymers and other elements that comprise the two are different enough that I'd want to see a flush before making a long term change to the different product. Thats just me, many others have done it with no ill effects that we know of.

Quote:

How do you do the flush? What type of mineral oil and where can it be found?

To complete a flush, something like valvoline racing oil could be used in a conventional formula.. Run that for 15 minutes, then dump it and refill with the new oil.

I have a break in oil product that works very well also, but only if you'd be swapping to our "Flat 6 Oil" for the long term.

Quote:

What do you mean when you say "As we work to finish the completion of our oil"?

Just that. My company and LN Engineering becgan development of our own oil back in 2006. We teamed up with Joe Gibbs Racing oil to create this product as well as a line of products for our aircooled Porsche engines, oddly enough we refer to this as "Snake Oil". The aircooled oil is now in service in our aircooled engines (has been for 18+ months with excellent results)and being sold to those purchasers as a mandatory service fill for the engine's entire lifespan.

Lubrizol recently sent me the final five gallons of a new 5-40 Group 3 Synthetic oil that will be the "Flat 6 Oil" of the future. This is the culmination of 4 years+ of development and application. We'll continue using this in our engines, gathering UOA and testimonials from our purchasers and test engines. I'd expect it to go on sale to the general public in late 2011 or 2012 at a cost of around 13.00/quart. This oil will require a flush fill before it can be used in any engine that formerly used Mobil 1.

Quote:

I know UOA is used oil analysis, but what's the TAN?

Total Acid Number- One of the biggest portions of any oil analysis.

clickman · 10-17-2010, 02:34 PM

Snake Oil - I love it! Can't wait to see what the water-cooled version's gonna be called.

Jake, how different are the TAN numbers with or without flush? I don't track my car.

Is this the Valvoline you're referring to?

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/6

Assuming I do this (not yet decided), does the weight make any difference (for 15 minutes)?

What about just using the cheapest dino oil available if it's only for 15 minutes?

Jake Raby · 10-17-2010, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Jake, how different are the TAN numbers with or without flush? I don't track my car.

Different enough.. I'd rather not state numbers to keep people from throwing out technicalities.

Quote:

Is this the Valvoline you're referring to?

Yes.

Quote:

Assuming I do this (not yet decided), does the weight make any difference (for 15 minutes)?

Not really.. But I'd use something light to help with lubricity in the short run time when the oil temps won't get very high.

Quote:

What about just using the cheapest dino oil available if it's only for 15 minutes

Nope.. Use something that has a good detergency pack, it'll do the best job of flushing the polymers and etc from the previous oil.

Fluellen · 10-17-2010, 04:23 PM

Hmm... is it April Fools Day today in Georgia?

clickman · 10-19-2010, 10:20 AM

Considering the car will be sitting for 6-7 months (maybe more) after this oil change, I want to make sure I'm not obsessing about deteriorating engine components while it sits. Ok, yes, I'm a Type A personality.

Jake, the only Valvoline VR-1 non-synth I can find is 20W-50. Will that do?

What about just using this Amsoil flush instead?

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2763.pdf

Or Motul Engine Clean? (scroll about 3/4 down)

http://motul-canada.com/en/products/products_list.html

I would add one of these to the existing Mobil1 (~5000 miles on it), drain it with the M1, and then refill with the Castrol, run a few minutes, and then put into storage.

Thanks.

Jake Raby · 10-19-2010, 11:05 AM

No April fools day joke here.. No one else was crazy enough to call an actual oil product, Snake Oil" and thats why I did it.

DO NOT use an engine flush in an M96 engine, it flushes all the contaminants into the tensioners and lifters and CAUSES problems as they are at the end of the oil system! I've seen it often!

Use the 20/50 valvoline non-synthetic. Thats fine for a flush.

BYprodriver · 10-19-2010, 03:05 PM

Jake is Flat 6 doing Oil analysis for customers?

Flavor 987S · 10-19-2010, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

Jake is Flat 6 doing Oil analysis for customers?

Not sure if Jake does, but Charles at L&N Eng. does for sure. You can see it on his web site.

Jake Raby · 10-19-2010, 04:27 PM

We do analysis on our engines, but thats all.

Cloudsurfer · 10-20-2010, 09:57 PM

Group III synthetic huh. Last I knew, only in the US could Group III oils be marketed as "synthetic." And at $13/quart? Whats the margin on this stuff?

Thanks but no thanks, I'll keep running my Motul or Redline, which are, by the way, Group V oils that justify their price (and even then, under $10/quart).

Flavor 987S · 10-21-2010, 05:12 AM

It is now becoming more clear to me why Jake has not given clear oil recommendations the past +2 years and clearly bashed other oil brands (Mobil) during the same time period.

Cloudsurfer · 10-21-2010, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavor 987S

It is now becoming more clear to me why Jake has not given clear oil recommendations the past +2 years and clearly bashed other oil brands (Mobil) during the same time period.

Gee, ya think?

Jake Raby · 10-21-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloudsurfer

Gee, ya think?

Hows it going, Patrick? I wondered when you'd take your stab.. been waiting for you for a while now. How are those heels doing?

Honestly I never planned on selling the oil products to those outside our engine program. The continual questions about what oil we use and those begging us to buy it proved that we'd be fools not to offer it.

The reason why I never answered oil questions or made recommendations was because the oil I was using couldn't be purchased.. it comes to me in 5 gallon pails and 55 gallon drums. It took lots of working with our developmental partners to decide if it should be offered and we still haven't decided whether or not we will offer a street oil outside our engine program.

I have several group III oils and a group V as well. At this point we are only selling the break in and pure race oils that are spent after 750 miles of service.

Negativity just like these last couple of posts is to be expected from those who incorrectly believe that everything we do is about profit. Hell, I'd have to sell 25,000 gallons of oil to ever make a dollar off of what we have put into engine oil development since 2006. Oil development is a necessary evil for our program and for our authorized shops to benefit from.

Motul and Redline are both quality oils, some weights are more effective than others. what we have worked to do is create an oil that maintains its characteristics at very high oil temperatures. You'll see why we have done this soon if I decide to share some data that was gathered at 4 different tracks from a test car this summer that used several different oils.

I learned long ago that for my engine program to be successful the engines had to have a lifeblood that complimented the components, clearances and temeprature ranges.Nothing I could buy totally satisfied me, the ones that came closest to having acceptable UOA cost MORE than what our custom formulations cost. We developed that and are willing to share it. Expensive?? Hell yes, so are my engines.

FWIW- IF we do offer a street oil to the public it won't be as expensive as the race oil, probably 10.50/quart or less if bought in 2.5 gallon jugs (a full service fill for an M96 engine). The race oil has a very expensive anti-wear package and is made in small batches due to its custom formula, so its "margin" isn't what one would expect.

The main reason we developed this oil was to have absolute control over the formulations found in the oils.. we got tired of having to do constant virgin oil analysis to find out what had changed in oils from month to month.. we this I have the formula at my disposal and every batch comes with VOA documentation to quantify that.

In the next few weeks I'll be posting an audio interview with Lake Speed of Joe Gibbs Racing oil, a Certified Lubricantion Specialist with the API. After this is posted most questions anyone could ever have will be answered.