Pls help: RMS vs IMS failure?

[sclaningham]

Have a 2004 tiptronic Boxster S. 3 years ago (20k miles) engine was replaced due to a "sheared bolt". Now I just towed my car (30k miles) with the same symptoms to the garage and fear it is the same thing. Symptoms = thrashing noise (like tree branches wrapped around the axle) and all the oil just poured out the car like a spigot. What are the RMS and IMS failures and which am I likely to have? Any tips on getting Porsche to replace the engine AGAIN (it's not under warranty now). I don't trust the dealer garage; it's with another mechanic for diagnosis now. Love my car, but this is too much!

[Jake Raby]

This does sound like the IMs failure to me.. Generaly an RMS failure will create no mechanical sounds..
I have experienced several clients that have had multiple failures, one of them is on engine #4 at the present.

It has become clear that driving style impacts the IMS failure.

The engine could be salvageable so get a second opinion from someone with the proper internal comprehension of the M96.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by sclaningham

Have a 2004 tiptronic Boxster S. 3 years ago (20k miles) engine was replaced due to a "sheared bolt". Now I just towed my car (30k miles) with the same symptoms to the garage and fear it is the same thing. Symptoms = thrashing noise (like tree branches wrapped around the axle) and all the oil just poured out the car like a spigot. What are the RMS and IMS failures and which am I likely to have? Any tips on getting Porsche to replace the engine AGAIN (it's not under warranty now). I don't trust the dealer garage; it's with another mechanic for diagnosis now. Love my car, but this is too much!

I can suggest shops in So. CA where is your car?

[sclaningham]

Thanks for your responses, guys.
Jake--not sure what you mean by driving style b/c the car is barely driven--usually ~15 miles to work, 70ish mph on the highway, or an occasional outing on the Pacific Coast Highway. Hardly anything I would call aggressive. I would hope Porsche can design a car for normal driving...but I'm beginning to doubt this.
BY-I'm in Thousand Oaks, Ventura County. Recommendations would be much appreciated!
S

[stephen wilson]

If I'm reading Jake correctly, he's saying failures, especially multiple, may be caused by driving style. Short trips, occasional & mild usage, lugging the engine, etc. , are bad for the M96 engine, so it would be better if you did drive aggressively (after the car is warmed up).

Didn't your replacement engine come with a 2 year warranty?

[Jake Raby]

Like I said, it seems that certain driving styles lead to more frequent occurrences of the IMS failure.

If I explained that in detail a flame war would probably follow...

[tnoice]

What he is saying is........(if I am reading between the lines a bit) once the car is warmed up, Drive it like a Porsche should be driven not like you would drive your Grandmother's Buick. I remember a LONG time ago talking to a Porsche mechanic and he stated that one of the reasons that we have problems with our cars (911's at the time) is because they are not driven like they should be. They need to be driven hard after they have properly warmed up.

Due your car a favor. Romp on her today!!

Just no tickets please..

Thanks.

[Jake Raby]

I will also state that very rarely do we get calls from owners that have experienced the IMS failure who had previously owned and driven an Aircooled Porsche...

[70Sixter]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Like I said, it seems that certain driving styles lead to more frequent occurrences of the IMS failure.

If I explained that in detail a flame war would probably follow...

I know you don't like to cause controversy, but I'd like to hear more of what you mean. And I understand no little ol' lady driving.

I make regular trips to 7k, but make no to effort to keep rpm up constantly. The old pre-CD ignition cars required revs to keep the plugs from fouling.

[Paul]

My signature says it all. I have been driving Porsches hard since 1974 and they have been very trouble free. Just yesterday I participated in a 300 mile tour where I floored my 01 at almost every start and shifted at 7000 rpms all day long. BTW so were all the other Porsches.....(30 or so).

[Jake Raby]

The oil that comes out from a RMS leak, is the oil going around the bearing or through it?
Along those lines...

When the outer seal begins to be compromised engine oil is allowed into the bearing. This oil washes the permanent lubrication from the sealed bearing. As time goes on the oil will seep through the inner seal and into the IMS tube little by little.

Fast forward a few thousand miles and the inner seal becomes further compromised, along with the outer seal, the release of oil that has accumulated inside the tube is what ends up on the garage floor as it bypasses the OE bearing flange in the center. This oil is nasty black because it has been caught up inside the IMS tube through many heat cycles.

If it is going through it, do cars like mine that had 4 RMS repairs prior to the IMS replacement have a less chance of failure?

An RMS and IMS leak is much different and not related.

Should a very leaky RMS be replaced?

Yes. It also must be absolutely proven that the leak is from the RMS, not the IMS as the symptoms are virtually the same. If it is from the IMS then the bearing must be changed ASAP since the release of oil is the first sign that the IMS is beginning to go.

Do cars that have a single leak and then never leak again have a greater failure rate because there is oil going through the bearing, but at a slow rate and therefore not washing completly through

?
Perhaps, but I still think you may have the IMS and RMS confused.

[jhandy]

I understand the difference, I just dont know in which direction does the oil flow.

hang with me for a second:

If it works like this: the oil from the motor, goes through the bearing, and then to the rear seal, then to the garage floor... more oil on ther floor would be good in that the old motor oil is not blocked from "passing through" and does not back up inside the bearing.

OR

the oil goes to the real seal area, and then pools, then seeps into the bearing, and into the tube, and back out the tube pass the bearing. In that case the rear seal leak would have not much to do with failure.

OR

Am I wrong in both areas?


Also why does porsche not just recall the cars and fix the issues and thier reputation by doing the retrofit as a recall.

[Cloudsurfer]

Originally Posted by jhandy

I understand the difference, I just dont know in which direction does the oil flow.

hang with me for a second:

If it works like this: the oil from the motor, goes through the bearing, and then to the rear seal, then to the garage floor... more oil on ther floor would be good in that the old motor oil is not blocked from "passing through" and does not back up inside the bearing.

OR

the oil goes to the real seal area, and then pools, then seeps into the bearing, and into the tube, and back out the tube pass the bearing. In that case the rear seal leak would have not much to do with failure.

OR

Am I wrong in both areas?


Also why does porsche not just recall the cars and fix the issues and thier reputation by doing the retrofit as a recall.

Yes. Two completely separate things.

Now, as to why Porsche doesn't do what Mazda did with the RX8 motors (where they gave the early cars, which had a higher chance of blowing up, a complementary 100k mile warranty) or something similar is beyond me, though I understand their mindset unfortunately. You would think that the company would be concerned with bad PR and pissed off owners who will never buy the marque again, but it's not quite that simple.

All companies know their buyer demographics, and who buys their products new, and second-hand. As such, Porsche knows (and I'd say at better than 95% correctly) that the people who buy used Boxsters will never buy a new Porsche, so really, despite how pissed off you are that your car blew up and that you'll never buy a Porsche again, they haven't lost a sale, as you weren't going to buy a new car anyway (aside from selling parts, they could care less who buys the cars used). Sad but true.

This also explains why there are many documented cases of original owners getting goodwill replacement motors (after the warranty expired). That's because this guy DID buy the car new, and likely will again, so they don't want to piss him off by saying "sorry, out of warranty, but here's your $15k bill to fix your car."

[Cloudsurfer]

This picture may help you. This is the view from the rear of the 1-3 case half, during assembly with the bearing carrier (which holds the crank) inserted. To the left is the rear of the Intermediate Shaft (where you can see the end of the bearing behind the flange), and to the right is the back of the crank. The gap between the crank and the case half is where the RMS seal goes.

As you can see, the RMS and the IMS are completely separate, and do not share oil in any way.

[Jake Raby]

I understand the difference, I just dont know in which direction does the oil flow.

Oil doesn't flow to either, it is delivered via splash.

hang with me for a second:

If it works like this: the oil from the motor, goes through the bearing

Which bearing??

and then to the rear seal, then to the garage floor... more oil on ther floor would be good in that the old motor oil is not blocked from "passing through" and does not back up inside the bearing

No... You are associating the seals.. They are not associated at all. Two different components..

OR

the oil goes to the real seal area, and then pools, then seeps into the bearing, and into the tube, and back out the tube pass the bearing. In that case the rear seal leak would have not much to do with failure.

Nope... The oil that gets into the IMS isn't coming from the RMS.

Also why does porsche not just recall the cars and fix the issues and thier reputation by doing the retrofit as a recall.

That would be admission that a problem actually exists..

Deny, Deny, Deny...

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by sclaningham

Have a 2004 tiptronic Boxster S. 3 years ago (20k miles) engine was replaced due to a "sheared bolt". Now I just towed my car (30k miles) with the same symptoms to the garage and fear it is the same thing. Symptoms = thrashing noise (like tree branches wrapped around the axle) and all the oil just poured out the car like a spigot. What are the RMS and IMS failures and which am I likely to have? Any tips on getting Porsche to replace the engine AGAIN (it's not under warranty now). I don't trust the dealer garage; it's with another mechanic for diagnosis now. Love my car, but this is too much!

I am in O.C. & don't know much north of LA but I can recommend Callas Rennsport in Torrance. 310-370-7038 It is worth your time to give them a call. Get the June issue of Excellance magagine & read the Tech Forum on page 129 about IMS failures written by Tony Callas @ Callas Rennsport he my be helpful in warranty advice for your engine. EBS racing@aol.com had a good price on a new engine$10,000 & good to deal with if you go that route. I do not recommend any of the local engines advertised as rebuilt. I would definetly contact the dealer that installed the engine to see what they will do for you.