Techno Torque Part 2.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Do you have a plot that was done in power Vs RPM??

Thats not a very strong 3.4 at all.. even on the better plots. What intake and etc are you running on this engine? Based on the dips at changeover and the powerband I think I know.

His sig only says he's running a BMC filter on the intake side, guessing with the stock box?

[edevlin]

Thanks for the plot Jay, I never tire of seeing dyno plots of our cars, enjoy,

Ed

[JAAY]

Thanks for backing me up. Stock air box. I have some other things to check tomorrow. Just spotted a blockage. Because of being de snorked the stock box fell a bit below the hole for the inlet. I'll some how fix that tomorrow. Anyone have a stock snorkle for me?

[jhandy]

I asked this before, but I think it got lost in all of the hoopla from before.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why it shows a decrease in HP and Torque? I would like to guess that the TT takes up space. It decreases the volume of the intake. The flow may be more linear, however I would bet that the Cubic feet per min of air is lower than stock because the TT reduces overall volume.

If you look at factory exampes of this technology, you will notice that it makes laminar flow of air without changing the overall volume of the air intake tubes.

[sd_boxster]

Those of you who are giving JAAY crap - bugger off. It's people like you who make forums suck, NOT people like Jaay.

Jaay did nothing but try to (a) accumulate some decent data about the effectiveness of Pedro's part, and (b) try to share it in a way that wouldn't endorse or disparage the TT. I was happy to pay the ten bucks and am willing to send it back to Jaay if he wants it.

All these "performance" modifcations remind me off "The Little Engine That Could" gone awry. Want more horsepower, better handling, clean hands? Sell your old car and buy a new one. Because they are faster, have more horsepower, handle better and smell new.
Your money would be better spent in a savings account to help you buy your new car.

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by JAAY

Thanks for backing me up. Stock air box. I have some other things to check tomorrow. Just spotted a blockage. Because of being de snorked the stock box fell a bit below the hole for the inlet. I'll some how fix that tomorrow. Anyone have a stock snorkle for me?

Jaay,

I think that I still have my oem snorkle sitting around. You are more than welcome to it. How soon do you need it ?

Johnny

[JAAY]

Dalealan2001,

If I wanted a new car I would just go buy one. Not every one wants a new car. The 986 is the same as a 987. I have a 3.4, I have a 987 tranny, I have a 987 clutch, I could use heated seats Some suspension work and I am good to go. I happen to really like the 986 and I like to turn wrenches on it. Kinda my hobby and release from the norm. I like having trouble with it and having to figure it out. Getting your hands dirty is not for everyone. As for handling better that is another fun thing to mess around with. Take something that has the same platform and upgrade and tune it. Smells like new... My car has less miles than most two year old cars and stays in a garage under a cover. Smells good to me. I just like my car. I don't think I will get rid of my 986 ever. I may buy something different but there is no reason to sell it.

I understand your point if you enjoy working on your car. But a lot of people spend a lot of money in the aftermarket parts area for "performance" parts that do not do as they advertise. And before you know it they have sunk thousands upon thousands of dollars never even comming close to what a new car performance achieves. I know because I have done this before. It's an easy trap to get into.

[Jake Raby]

At least 95% of what I have evaluated for my engine program in the way of aftermarket parts do nothing but suck.. The majority are developed and never applied, they are sold based on looks and sound- two things that don't mean anything to me or my level of effectiveness in the performance department..
because of that we are not only having to address reliability issues and overcome them, but also recreate the engine's subsystems completely as well ad that has seriously impeded our schedule..

Sorry fellas, looks and sound aren't performance enhancements- especially if you compromise output, efficiency and longevity to gain them.

I've seen dozens of cars with every hack imaginable done to them, only to make 15-20 HP less than a bone stock car.

I have provided Pedro with some independent evaluations already and he has sent me some units to modify and compare those evaluations to.

[fastorange]

Originally Posted by sd_boxster

Those of you who are giving JAAY crap - bugger off. It's people like you who make forums suck, NOT people like Jaay.

Jaay did nothing but try to (a) accumulate some decent data about the effectiveness of Pedro's part, and (b) try to share it in a way that wouldn't endorse or disparage the TT. I was happy to pay the ten bucks and am willing to send it back to Jaay if he wants it.

All I did was point out that JAAY could have just sent the dyno info to the "all three" of the people who sent the donations, instead of creating a new post callling out the TECHNO TORQUE DYNO, only to not share any info... in JAYY's defense, he does give out good info alot, and contributes good stuff to the forum, I guess I was just in a grumpy mood when I wrote that....sorry JAAY...

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

At least 95% of what I have evaluated for my engine program in the way of aftermarket parts do nothing but suck.. The majority are developed and never applied, they are sold based on looks and sound- two things that don't mean anything to me or my level of effectiveness in the performance department..
because of that we are not only having to address reliability issues and overcome them, but also recreate the engine's subsystems completely as well ad that has seriously impeded our schedule..

Sorry fellas, looks and sound aren't performance enhancements- especially if you compromise output, efficiency and longevity to gain them.

I've seen dozens of cars with every hack imaginable done to them, only to make 15-20 HP less than a bone stock car.

I have provided Pedro with some independent evaluations already and he has sent me some units to modify and compare those evaluations to.

Jake,

Now that its been revealed that the Techno Torque 2 does not provide any performance gains, in fact the results actually suggest that power was lost, do you have any suggestions on how to improve the oem plenum with another product? Or, should one simply put the original piece back on. Also, any thoughts on the IPD product ? At $ 1000 the price seems ridiculously high.

Johnny

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Johnny Danger

Jake,

Now that its been revealed that the Techno Torque 2 does not provide any performance gains, in fact the results actually suggest that power was lost, do you have any suggestions on how to improve the oem plenum with another product? Or, should one simply put the original piece back on. Also, any thoughts on the IPD product ? At $ 1000 the price seems ridiculously high.

Johnny

By no means am I saying anything here that will be more than neutral on the effectiveness of the TT2, because I have not yet evaluated the arrangement closely enough to fully understand it.

To do this I'll have to get a stock engine on the engine dyno and do lots of back to back evals gathering exhaust gas temps from each cylinder as well as single cylinder pressures while the engine is running with some new equipment I have just ordered for the lab.

Until I gather this data it'll be impossible to understand WHY the TT2 effects the engine either positively or negatively.

That'll be a while.. We don't touch many stock engines, in fact I have never built a bone stock engine! I'll leave that up to the "robots" at the factory :-)

JAAY's experience was just one example.. No one should base the TT2 or any other component on just one sample. JAAY's engine is obviously low on power for a 3.4, even with it's best output numbers.

And when the Dyno tech can't even spell Porsche or Boxster I'd question just how scientifically the data was gathered or how repeatable the dyno operator maintained the runs..

There is a lot to using a chassis dyno for back to back comparos with accuracy.. One must ensure the gearbox, coolant and oil temperatures are maintained between both samples. Its also important to ensure the engine has fresh air delivered to the intake and that the cell isn't contaminated by exhaust gas recirculation that robs oxygen from the engine (it doesn't take much to impact the numbers big time!)

Its also important that the car be strapped down exactly the same for both samples and that tire pressures are the same.. I go so far as prying the rear brake pads off the rotors before doing this type of work to eliminate brake drag losses that can be variables.

Then make sure the fuel in the tank is the same for both runs... On top of that you have to also do several runs and then average the results rather than just making two pulls and letting it go from there. I have learned that the best way to do these tests is starting the evals with coolant temps of 170F, then do run after run back to back until the coolant temps reach 210F and power falls off. This provides several samples across the range that can be averaged for the best results.

That said, a chassis dyno is not the tool to use for development and evaluation work. There are too many variables that exist and the work takes serious effort on behalf of the operator/ test administrator.

This work is all I do.. Assembly is my secondary objective.

[2K3_Boxster_S]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

At least 95% of what I have evaluated for my engine program in the way of aftermarket parts do nothing but suck..

Glad my car falls into the 5% category. pretty sure it wasn't making 246 whp when it left the factory.

[jhandy]

Jake and others,
Could the owners of the 986 use the updated 987/caymen laminar flow intake tubes to achieve the flow control desired without changing the volume of the tube (as in the TT2).???


Really might be that simple, The TT2 restricts air volume. I cant see anyway around it, simply it takes up space. The result should be less, more directed, air flow. CFM should be tested with the tube off and in a controlled situation. Leaf blower on low- taped to the intake tube, with a CFM measuring device on the output end.

Maybe I am totally wrong, might be. Maybe Pedro has already done this testing and proved me wrong.

[Jake Raby]

Testing any intake component's characteristics is difficult, even with a flow bench.. Thats because individual cylinders can be impacted.

To properly evaluate the system the engine must be used as the testing instrument.. Inadequacies in the intake system are easily measured with EGT and net CFM of the engine with the proper equipment.

The various components could be evaluated with a flowbench, but its impossible to simulate the same conditions that are present with the engine in operation on a flowbench.

2K3,
I hope you aren't basing the performance of your Porsche only on the peak output numbers.. I compare components at part throttle and also pay close attention to the average outputs across the usable RPM range of the vehicle that are determined by it's application.

I see cars that make big peak numbers on the dyno that don't have any faster 0-60 times or 40-80 times... More peak power doesn't necessarily mean that you'll go faster. Getting caught up on numbers is the fastest way to become seriously disappointed when someone with a bone stock car goes faster..
As we say, the "Bigger is Better Crowd" is always easiest to beat.. They beat themselves most of the time :-)

246 is a strong 3.2 for sure..What have you done to the car?

[funkdefino]

Originally Posted by kabel

so much for not over reacting

I'd hardly say I was "over reacting". Just calling it like I see it.

I have no problems with JAAY, quite the contrary. He's one of the members of this board that make it interesting to come to. I appreciate his contributions.

I just think that if the results were meant to be a private sale, if no additional money wa being sought then there was no need for this second post. I've read and re-read it several times... No change in opinion.

Does that make me have a problem with JAAY? Not at all.

[2K3_Boxster_S]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

2K3,
I hope you aren't basing the performance of your Porsche only on the peak output numbers.........
I see cars that make big peak numbers on the dyno that don't have any faster 0-60 times or 40-80 times... More peak power doesn't necessarily mean that you'll go faster. ................

Don't worry next stop isn't going to be a dyno. Va Motorsports Park for some 1/4 mile times. That should speak for itself. its just going to take time. Right now I have a broken shifter (new schnell waiting to be installed). need to change brake pads (new EBC redstuff waiting). and I havn't touched the ECU yet. Ordering FVD sofware tommorow. So we will see in time. maybe i'm right maybe your right.

[j.fro]

When are you headed to VA Motorsports Park?

[2K3_Boxster_S]

Originally Posted by j.fro

When are you headed to VA Motorsports Park?

Looks like there last Open Test and Tune is Nov. 21. I'm currently working in Baltimore, MD. No way i'm going to be able to make that. I don't see a schedule for Dec. I'm not sure if they close for the winter or not????? That could be the last event for 2009. I need to call them. I guess i will try to hit the first Test and Tune Open event after Nov. 21. You want to come out? I think its $30 unlimited passes. If I remember right.