read this and be warned about your motor
 

My car is a 2002 S and I have never tracked it, I drive it hard but not more than anyone else.
I have had 3 RMS repaired at the dealer prior to 30,000k miles.

Nothing else has ever been wrong with the motor. I change the oil with 0W40 mobil1 every 5000 miles like clock work. I currently have 65000 miles on the car.

My extended warrenty will expire at 70K so I loaded my car on a transport and sent it to Jake Raby to have the IMS taken care of before I had problems. Aside from a little power loss the car ran good.

Jake opened the motor and found ALL but two of the lifters stuck. The chain tentioners where badly worn and one had already broken a little. Best of all the IMS bering was very worn and close to failure.

Everything was fixed and I should have the car back soon after a few more minor repairs are done. So to all of those guys who say that IMS and Tentioners dont really go out that often, I say get an extended warrenty and send your car to Raby before it dies.
James

How could one know their motor is about to crater like yours without tearing it down?

Can you give us an idea on cost?

Maybe you should've tracked it? No offense but your case still doesn't mean these things are dropping like flies. I will be sure to note that if I have to repair my RMS 3 times and there is a loss of power than I might just start to think that something is wrong with my engine. Honestly, if I have to repair the RMS again (had to once) than the For Sale sign will go in the window.

What was the total costs to do those repairs by Jake? I'll need to put some $$ aside...

He will have to fill in the details, but what he did was to get a stethoscope and listened to a running IMS bering and also He said that the lifter made a clicking noise while starting the car for a mirco second and he said that the tentioners are always crap after about 60K.

I sent it to him because he is the king of these things, and just like a doctor, if you know what you are hearing, you can diagnose without opening the motor.

The IMS can be done for @700$ even if you did not have coverage of a warrenty.
All these guys spending 1000sK on upgrades and there is a service that can save 25000K by changing a bering. No brainer.

The motor does not have to be out of the car, just take off the valve covers to do the lifters and tentioners

Anyway, I got lucky i guess. The car is going to the dyno tomorrow, I hope to post results.
James

When i say loss of power i mean just a slightly less power than say 5 yrs ago. It still dynoed at a little less than expected prior to repairs.
I would have never guessed that all of that stuff was wrong.

cost to ship was 500$ each way, As for Jakes prices, you should ask him, as I am sure every car is different.

I expect the warrenty company to cover it anyway, so I may only have to pay the 200$ deductable.

I'm no motor expert, but shouldn't the Check Engine Light come on if the lifters were stuck in place?

I'll clarify tomorrow exactly what we have found with James' car...

The lifters were not stuck in place.. The hydraulic tappets had frozen, which is absolutely typical at any mileage more than 50K... In this case 20 of the 24 lifters had failed.

We caught his IMS early enough that it could be saved, it partially came apart during the extraction process..

Just because you don't have a CEL doesn't mean you don't have internal wear... The CEL illuminates once a problem of significance occurs.. They call them "idiot lights" for a reason.

If it illuminates, you have waited too long..

I heard James' car fire up twice and after it idled for 30 seconds I knew where to look... That was before listening to it with the scope...

I have documented most every aspect of the repair and if its OK with James I'll post it all here... A true 60K service means opening up the cam covers, inspecting lifters, changing vario cam chain tensioner pads, pulling the sump pan and inspecting for a clogged oil pick up tube or torn oil control windows..

We learned these things by tearing these engines down over and over again and seeing the same trends at the same mileages...

As always we did a pre evaluation on the dyno and tomorrow after we finish the work we'll evaluate it for a true before and after set of comparatives.. Then I'll put 200 test miles on it personally and send it back home...

REALIZE that stuck lifters and worn tensioner pads may not be catastrophic failures alone but they can compound to create a poor running, low power engine that can have valve timing issues that can cost you big.. Its all about preventative maintenance and having someone work on the engine that knows their inherent issues and where to look for them..

BTW- James' 4-6 cylinder bank was 4 degrees retarded on it's cam timing.. at tear down...

Its not my intent to scare anyone, just to give solid information based on real world experience from direct experience with this engine.

I have yet to see a single engine come in for tear down or intervention that didn't have at least 2 malfunctioning lifters... The replacements we have developed won't have these issues again as their internal valving has been altered. That should show up on his dyno graph, it does wonders for my full blown updated performance engines..

James has ben great to work with... Thanks james for sending us your Boxster..

I have a 2003 S with about 60,000 and have had 0 RMS failures. you can't find a drop of oil on the engine, doesn't smoke, etc. etc.. Consumer Reports rates the 2002 Boxster under Major Engine category with the highest reliability rating. and there are 100's of other Boxster owners that haven't experienced any problems. SO what's Your Point?

http://www.987forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18280

Drive your car to my shop.. Stand over my shoulder while I pull the lifters from one bank of your engine...

If you don't have at least 4 bad units on that bank I'll pull all the lifters, replace them and replace the vario cam chain tensioner pads for free, parts and labor included...

The only hitch is we document the entire process here, no matter what we find... If the units are bad you only have to buy the upgraded replacement parts.

This is not a joke... I am more than confident that you'll have at least 4 bad units, else I wouldn't risk a preventative measure of this magnitude for free..

Sticky or stuck lifters won't create a failure, but they do effect drive ability, MPG, efficiency, throttle response and the smile on the driver's face.....

I'll use the opportunity to gather footage for another DVD.... What do you say?

I have 2 yrs. 10 month's and about 34,000 miles left on my extended warranty. Fidelis Plantinum. If the engine explodes into a cloud of dust tommorow. I pay $0 labor and $0 for parts while the engine is replaced. So that would be less than what you are offering. Plus I believe that would probably void the warranty. no thanks.

Jake, is there preventative maintenance for the problematic lifters?
A pre oil change addative perhaps.....

"I have 2 yrs. 10 month's and about 34,000 miles left on my extended warranty. Fidelis Plantinum. If the engine explodes into a cloud of dust tommorow. I pay $0 labor and $0 for parts while the engine is replaced. "

If you think that they will replace your motor if it goes, I have a bridge to sell you. They will get out of it somehow.
I am courious, has anyone had a porsche motor replaced by a warrenty company?
US fidelis does not have a good reputation to begin with, look them up on BBB or just google it.
The easiest way to get out of it is to have you produce oil chages reports, or when they download the DME and see that you may have redlined your motor once or twice. That would constitute abuse and that makes everything not covered.

Don't scare people. The IMS issue is mainly with 3.2L(and non-gt3 or Turbo'd 996) engines,not the base models...

I've got 75K on my 987. I'll take up you on that offer at some point! Maybe next summer :-) By then is would have 85-90 on it. That is unless it blows up catastrophically before then. I'll just try not to rev it to 9K any more :eek:

But seriously, my 944 had 200K when I tore the motor down for the first time in its life and the bearings were worn a little, rings were still sealing well, and the lifters were fine. Compression was actually higher than stock from all the carbon build up.

60K seems low for these motors to be blowing up, and I would be very interested in seeing how much wear is present in my motor.

And if lifters are bad, then I would feel better knowing that things have been repaired.

2002 Boxster S - 3rd engine at 80k. Not bad advice, jhandy

I think he said 3 x RMS repaired - which does not correlate to an engine replacement!

James,
What was your total costs to do the repairs? Is this under $1K or $3K?

Thanks,
-Steve

That is a really great offer!!! I wish I could take you up on it in 2K3_Boxster_S's place, but my car only has 19k miles on it with a good service history so I'm probably not the best candidate.

I am saving up for the 3.2 -->3.6 upgrade you do though. We might have to discuss doing a full before->during->after DVD for it if you are willing even if I have to pay a little extra for it for my own personal collection. :cheers:

Even at 19K I'd bet you have at least a few lifters that have the same condition.. There is NOTHING worse than these engines sitting idle for the lifters and this condition.

The engine thats in my personal test car had 28,000 when it was installed.. I put 2K more on it then used it to test my MKII camshafts, at which time I pulled the lifters to install my new springs that were designed with the camshafts... I had 11 bad lifters in that engine at 30K.

I have 2 yrs. 10 month's and about 34,000 miles left on my extended warranty. Fidelis Plantinum. If the engine explodes into a cloud of dust tommorow. I pay $0 labor and $0 for parts while the engine is replaced. So that would be less than what you are offering. Plus I believe that would probably void the warranty. no thanks.

Living in a dream world with rose colored glasses...

My '02 has 15k miles and so far I have installed the billet filter adapter/filter, drain plug and low temp t-stat. If I had the extra cash (too many college bills) I'd have the IMS bearing updated, just to be certain. I don't use Mobil1 0W40 and change my oil once a year or every 2500 to 3000 miles. When I drive the car, it is always for extended periods, making sure to get everything good and hot.

I, too, would be interested to hear of preventitive measures to ensure lifters do not stick. Wouldn't this be a result of extended oil change intervals?

Here is James' IMS bearing.. It was a single row bearing.

I'll post more later.. I need to go finish the engine work on his car and get it dynoed today.

Sadly, my neighbor would disagree. Her 04 base car imploded at 12K miles on the clock. IMS and the engine never stood a chance.

:confused:

Here's the thing:

My Lexus V6 has 133K on the clock and is bulletproof. Sounds and runs like new.

My cousin's Lexus V8 has 315K on the clock. No leaks, no repairs on engine, no RMS leak after 17 yrs of driving.

I guess I am puzzled why lifters stick at 60K.

Anyone else puzzled?

I dont want anyone to think I am trying to scare the boxster community. My whole point of this post is to let people know what may be happening in their cars.

I am the normal boxster owner...I dont track, it is my daily driver, I love to rev it up on the twisties and a long strait road screams for a 0-100 test drive.

I change the oil and care for the care like a baby. Aside from a little hesitation on cold start up, I thought it drove fine. Unknown to me I had all of these things wrong with the car.

Tappets are one thing, but read here about chain tentioners...http://www.lnengineering.com/chaintensioner.html
and we all know about the IMS.
I was all confident about letting it blow its self up and replaceing the whole motor until I heard about the aftermarket companies not replacing the motors due to fine print reasons. Then I read my contract. Pretty scarry if read with a critical eye.
That is why I sent it there to be fixed before it became a paper weight.

As far as costs go, I am hopeful that the warrenty company will pick up the bill, so I am out 200$. So for those without warrenty, I suggest you call Mr. Raby and inquire about prices.

If these lifters are such an issue and are going at such a low mileage how are there a handful of people with near 200k on their boxster on ppbb? One dude on there even has 225k on the original engine!

(not starting an argument just wondering)

I wonder the same thing though I'm starting to think the really high mileage M96 motors with no issues are more of the exception than the rule? I think there's enough enough evidence out there that the M96 motors are more prone to some of these issues that we would all say is ideal. There has to be a percentage of them out there that don't have any issues though wouldn't there?

I have a friend that blew up his Lexus IS350 motor earlier this summer with only 25,000 miles on it. Lexus was so shocked they shipped the motor off to Japan for autopsy......it certainly seemed to be the exception for one of their motors which normally will run 200/300k+ miles without issue if well taken care of. It does happen though.

Sadly it seems like the M96 cars are on the wrong side of the exceptions right now. :confused:

Do you think the warranty company will deny your claim because you are "upgrading" the engine with Raby components and not Porsche replacements? And technically nothing failed, it was more like preventative maintence? Keep us posted.

Sorry it's not fidelis. It's Fidelity Warranty Services. The extended warranty service that Porsche dealership sells. It's been used already no questions asked. AC blower motor and re-charge, they had the car for a week. I was given a rental car and I paid $0. Yes they will pay for the engine and any power train, transmission, suspension, etc. or a lawyer will be involved. the only thing they will not cover is normal wear items brake pads and no Clutch parts. It's not a $5,000 warranty for no reason.
http://www.jacksonville.bbb.org/commonreport.html?compid=4781
yes, you are right about US fidelis. they are a scam.

As far as the IMS bearing goes:
Well Porsche will not sell you an IMS bearing, it is not in the parts system.. Thgere is no Porsche part to use as a replacement.

An engine can go 225,000 miles with all 24 lifters bad... You'll have loud valve train, but it'll go that far without catastrophe.. BUT you'll be losing .040" valve lift, which is about 10% of the net valve lift of the engine.. That makes for low power, etc, etc...

Its your choice- deny the issues exist and refuse to do a few preventives or listen to what experience has taught us and solve simple issues while they are simple..

BTW- this is a a lot like Breast Cancer or Prostate Cancer... You can feel fine and be dead in a matter of months... If caught early it can be treated..

James was wise... His engine had a terminal illness and was cured with intervention that Porsche didn't develop and said could not be done!

That's why my daily commuter is my beloved Lexus. :rolleyes:


I just laugh it out (big time) everytime i read/hear that Porsche is ahead of Lexus/Toyota on any satisfaction, quality survey :D

[QUOTE=Jake Raby]

BTW- this is a a lot like Breast Cancer or Prostate Cancer... You can feel fine and be dead in a matter of months... [QUOTE]

Sounds familiar.....
This statement reminds me of Insurance agents selling catastrophic life insurance to some of my patients. ;)

What test can be done or what do I tell my mechanic to find out if I have bad lifters?

Maybe I am ignorant or a bit touched, but I knew what I was buying when I bought my 986. I paid significantly less for my car than my wife paid for her Jeep Liberty. I have had it a tad over a year and put about 9,000 miles on it (74,000 on the clock). The honeymoon is not over. The only repairs I have put into it other than routine Maintenance is to replace the A/C display and a brake light switch.

If it implodes tomorrow or 4 years from now I would probably buy another. What is it they say about insanity, "It's doing the same thing and expecting different results."

If that is the case, I am crazy about my 986. :dance:

I feel pretty much the same way. I got my boxster at a fire sale price. I always said if I end up liking it(which I do/did) then if the engine goes kaboom, I might think about dropping in a 3.4 or even a 3.8.

After chatting with an "expert" on the IMS subject, I am trying to weigh the cost of Preventive maintenance and engine replacement. The Ims is about 12.4% to 25% of an engine replacement(depending on what size I get). Here is the sick part. to do the lifters,clutch rebuild and ims/rms its 47% of what I paid for my Boxster two months ago. :eek: I have the upmost confidence in the "expert" but that is a lot of money to ponder, especially in this economy(couldn't resist blaming it) :D .

for Jake
 

Jake,
What are some normal price ranges for upgrading the IMS and a few lifters etc. Are we talking $500 or $5,000?

-Steve

Your mechanic should have a trained ear to recognize the tappet noises... A dyno run will show if the engine is low power, but you'll need other graphs from similar cars to know what is actually low power..

The only way to know is to pull the lifters and inspect them...

I know the main contributor to this issue, but will not post it, because it would start WWIII...

LOL :D ....NOT ANOTHER teaser from you - i smelled that coming...... :cheers:

See, I get in trouble even if I keep my mouth shut..
Open the rear trunk of your Boxster and the issue is staring you right in the face.