Jake Raby exhaust evaluation - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

blackbox · 07-27-2009, 04:54 PM

Wasn't there supposed be a big exhaust system evaluation coming from Jake Raby? I didn't see it on the "flat6" website and I haven't seen any links to it here within the forum.

I'm very interested to know what he came up with, if anything. I've been holding off on buying an aftermarket exhaust system because of this.

Please tell me that i've overlooked it and where I can find it.

2K3_Boxster_S · 07-27-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbox

Wasn't there supposed be a big exhaust system evaluation coming from Jake Raby? I didn't see it on the "flat6" website and I haven't seen any links to it here within the forum.

I'm very interested to know what he came up with, if anything. I've been holding off on buying an aftermarket exhaust system because of this.

Please tell me that i've overlooked it and where I can find it.

I will have an evaluation of NHP (headers,bypass mids, exhaust) pre and post dyno etc.. but you will have to wait about a month. (out of town for work) see my thread.

Jake Raby · 07-27-2009, 10:22 PM

None of the data has been posted, and it probably won't be... As soon as I mentioned it arguments began and thats something that I simply do not have time for these days.... Plus lots of people are rating the exhaust systems on sound and weight, and all I care about is RPM range and net power, especially torque..

I continue to gather data, I just finshed this testing today... 3 engines, same car.

All started life as a 3.2, the control is the lowest output run.. The 247HP run is a stock 3.2 bottom end with a nice valve job, bump in CR and cam timing alteration... Its got A LOT more left in it, it still had the 3.6 flash in the ECU in these tests..

The 286HP run was a stage II 3.6 that started life as the bone stock 3.2 that made the lowest power on this graph (it was hurting)...

mts · 07-28-2009, 04:21 AM

Jake - Is the Stage II car still a "street engine" that you could expect a reasonably long life out of? Figuring drive train losses that puts your stage 2 cars well north of 320 hp at the crank plus gobs more useable torque....SWEET!!

Mike

Jake Raby · 07-28-2009, 05:40 AM

The stage II engine is 100% streetable and even passed a smog test and it runs on pump gas.. It's easier to drive than stock with the much higher torque and flat torque curve. Red line is reduced a bit which keeps the fun factor up without running 7,000 RPM all the time, and that helps longevity.

It is rated at 350HP at the flywheel, the test vehicle has wide track tires and was losing some power to a newly built tranny with LSD that was still breaking in.

Few people have the ability to run these engines on an engine dyno and a chassis dyno :-)

Here is a comparo between this FSI 3.6 Stage II and a hopped up 3.4 in my 911. The 911 engine has seen our IMS retrofit, a dozen EVO flashes and an EVO cold air intake and it makes 15HP more at the wheels than it did bone stock..

ekam · 07-28-2009, 05:57 AM

I'd be interested to see dyno chart comparing your 3.6L along with a stock 996/997 3.6L.

Jake Raby · 07-28-2009, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekam

I'd be interested to see dyno chart comparing your 3.6L along with a stock 996/997 3.6L.

I'll have that data in about two weeks at the flywheel and rear wheels.

Bladecutter · 07-28-2009, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

None of the data has been posted, and it probably won't be... As soon as I mentioned it arguments began and thats something that I simply do not have time for these days.... Plus lots of people are rating the exhaust systems on sound and weight, and all I care about is RPM range and net power, especially torque..

I hate to ask, but why do you care about the people who are going to argue about cold hard facts? They will always exist, and they will always be vocal, but why let them have that warm feeling inside that they can keep you under their boot?

I personally don't care much about sound changes nor do I care about installing expensive exhaust systems, but I do care about knowledge. I enjoy the sound of my stock '98 Boxster, and don't have any plans on installing a different muffler for a different sound, but I wouldn't mind knowing if there is a better set of headers that I can install that might increase the low to medium range torque on my car.

I had a wonderful experience a couple Fridays ago by taking my Boxster out onto HPR (http://www.highplainsraceway.com). One thing I noticed is that some of the corners I needed to be in second gear, because if I was in third gear, I would be between 3k and 4k rpms, while trying to climb uphill, and the 2.5 could definitely use a boost of torque in that rev range.

Everywhere else on the track, the car is perfect.

I love reading about your methodology when it comes to testing a theory.
Unfortunately, you are worried about what 2% of the people are going to say about the results of your data. The other 98% of us don't care about that 2%.

BC.

Jake Raby · 07-28-2009, 07:50 AM

Quote:

I hate to ask, but why do you care about the people who are going to argue about cold hard facts? They will always exist, and they will always be vocal, but why let them have that warm feeling inside that they can keep you under their boot?

I have hadc to fight opposition with the sharing of knowledge in the aircooled world for years and don't want to make the same mistakes with the M96 that I have with the other engines I have manipulated.

Fact is there is nothing worse than working for days gathering dat and setting up test gear only to post it and have someone who reads tech articles with no practical application experience at all challenge it... That happens and I really don't have the tolerance for it, especially when giving the information away for free.

I already receive more crap through email than you can imagine from people that are still in denial that their engine can break... Some are down right nasty!

Quote:

I personally don't care much about sound changes nor do I care about installing expensive exhaust systems, but I do care about knowledge. I enjoy the sound of my stock '98 Boxster, and don't have any plans on installing a different muffler for a different sound, but I wouldn't mind knowing if there is a better set of headers that I can install that might increase the low to medium range torque on my car.

I understand and appreciate your view point. It is much like mine. The answer is you can get 1-3Hp from the headers more than likely, buit it won't be astounding.. And you might shear off 2-3 exhaust flange bolts during the install and that can cost you days or hundreds of dollars to repair.

Quote:

I had a wonderful experience a couple Fridays ago by taking my Boxster out onto HPR (http://www.highplainsraceway.com). One thing I noticed is that some of the corners I needed to be in second gear, because if I was in third gear, I would be between 3k and 4k rpms, while trying to climb uphill, and the 2.5 could definitely use a boost of torque in that rev range.

That means you need a flatter torque curve and more mid range grunt... Something I have gotten from a chamshaft change or a valve timing alteration that deviates from stock. The exhaust system might actually hurt the performance you are looking for..

Quote:

Everywhere else on the track, the car is perfect.

every car has some corner or portion of the track where the power isn't what it should be.

Quote:

I love reading about your methodology when it comes to testing a theory.
Unfortunately, you are worried about what 2% of the people are going to say about the results of your data. The other 98% of us don't care about that 2%.

Unfortunately that 2% has a voice that is much louder than the 98%... If I were going to have to listen to flack for sharing information I should at least charge for it...

It really does suck for everyone... People only think I am trying to sell them something, hell I don't even sell an exhaust system!

Their is a perfect example of this non sense over on PPBB now, where a bunch of armchair wrench turners that have never touched our billet magnetic drain plug or low temp thermostat are challenging their effectiveness.. They are basing their opinions on assumption and are seriously piossing me off. I have the data and drive and test the cars daily that are equipped with the components.

JFP in PA · 07-28-2009, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

I have hadc to fight opposition with the sharing of knowledge in the aircooled world for years and don't want to make the same mistakes with the M96 that I have with the other engines I have manipulated.

Fact is there is nothing worse than working for days gathering dat and setting up test gear only to post it and have someone who reads tech articles with no practical application experience at all challenge it... That happens and I really don't have the tolerance for it, especially when giving the information away for free.

I already receive more crap through email than you can imagine from people that are still in denial that their engine can break... Some are down right nasty!

I understand and appreciate your view point. It is much like mine. The answer is you can get 1-3Hp from the headers more than likely, buit it won't be astounding.. And you might shear off 2-3 exhaust flange bolts during the install and that can cost you days or hundreds of dollars to repair.

That means you need a flatter torque curve and more mid range grunt... Something I have gotten from a chamshaft change or a valve timing alteration that deviates from stock. The exhaust system might actually hurt the performance you are looking for..

every car has some corner or portion of the track where the power isn't what it should be.

Unfortunately that 2% has a voice that is much louder than the 98%... If I were going to have to listen to flack for sharing information I should at least charge for it...

It really does suck for everyone... People only think I am trying to sell them something, hell I don't even sell an exhaust system!

Their is a perfect example of this non sense over on PPBB now, where a bunch of armchair wrench turners that have never touched our billet magnetic drain plug or low temp thermostat are challenging their effectiveness.. They are basing their opinions on assumption and are seriously piossing me off. I have the data and drive and test the cars daily that are equipped with the components.

Jake, as I told Charles, remember the old line about "leading a horse to water"......... Both you and Charles need to keep the faith and keep up your great efforts, for as you have seen, "they know not what they do........" We can only hope that they eventually wake up and see the light………..

Jake Raby · 07-28-2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Jake, as I told Charles, remember the old line about "leading a horse to water"......... Both you and Charles need to keep the faith and keep up your great efforts, for as you have seen, "they know not what they do........" We can only hope that they eventually wake up and see the light………..

Charles and I are both very driven... We have worked together as collaborative partners for many years and have solved dozens of issues with a multitude of engine platforms.. On top of that, I am a Marine and I do not retreat, only fall back and regroup.

I wonder if any of those challengers on PPBB have ever assembled an M96 engine?? If they have ever seen one out of the car, or whith it's ancillaries removed??

Oh well, I was kicked off that forum for attempting to be an asset to the community and because I would not play the political games... Helping people really is difficult and expensive.

JFP in PA · 07-28-2009, 09:25 AM

Until recently, I was not aware that PPBB has given you the boot; which is a true shame. PPBB has always been vastly more about "who is saying it" rather than "what is being said"; you might be surprised to see the number of private email exchanges that have taken place over the years on that exact topic........

But, alas, I am afraid you are correct; for the most part about all most of the posters there have assembled is in the bar for drinks at happy hour......

eightsandaces · 07-28-2009, 10:47 AM

Jake,

Thanks for the wellspring of information you have provided, I kept the Excellence issue with your quotes in it as a study guide and bible of the 2.5 engine. Don't let some "pussy hurt" emails take you off your game, you're a mechanic, you're going to hear all sorts of nonsense from a myriad of sources. Perhaps PPBB is worried about the loss of sales.

Jake Raby · 07-28-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Until recently, I was not aware that PPBB has given you the boot; which is a true shame. PPBB has always been vastly more about "who is saying it" rather than "what is being said"; you might be surprised to see the number of private email exchanges that have taken place over the years on that exact topic........

But, alas, I am afraid you are correct; for the most part about all most of the posters there have assembled is in the bar for drinks at happy hour......

One of my Clients made a visit to the facility here... Shortly after that he posted positive comments here on 986 forum as well as PPBB, infact it was the same post on both boards.

The "High Sheriff" over on PPBB had his post deleted almost immediately, when he asked why there was no explanation.. Here on this forum a few days later someone aslked where the post had gone, so I made a fairly firm post about it and how unfair it was since the poster was not anything more than a purchaser with an opinion after seeing what we were doing first hand. I continued to post on PPBB..

Then, after THREE MONTHS the head honcho from PPBB gets on a power trip after he finally sees my comment here and sends me an email "asking" me not to post there again.. I sent a reply of apology and tried to make everything right, he never replied...

Thats OK.. I have a plan. (Marines always do)

JFP in PA · 07-28-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

One of my Clients made a visit to the facility here... Shortly after that he posted positive comments here on 986 forum as well as PPBB, infact it was the same post on both boards.

The "High Sheriff" over on PPBB had his post deleted almost immediately, when he asked why there was no explanation.. Here on this forum a few days later someone aslked where the post had gone, so I made a fairly firm post about it and how unfair it was since the poster was not anything more than a purchaser with an opinion after seeing what we were doing first hand. I continued to post on PPBB..

Then, after THREE MONTHS the head honcho from PPBB gets on a power trip after he finally sees my comment here and sends me an email "asking" me not to post there again.. I sent a reply of apology and tried to make everything right, he never replied...

Thats OK.. I have a plan. (Marines always do)

Jake, I've always looked at having my posts deleted as a badge of honor.......... By-the-by, did you catch the "longest tread in history" on PPBB about how to use a crows foot extension on a torque wrench? It literally went on for days..................

07-28-2009, 11:23 AM

I had the pleasure of visiting Jake's shop recently (thanks for taking that huge boat anchor engine off my hands, Jake

). Not so much a shop, but rather a lab. Thanks for all your help, Jake, and please don't let the actions and comments of a few bad apples prevent you from helping the members of this board.

Jake Raby · 07-28-2009, 12:22 PM

Yeah I saw that thread... Having used crows feet to torque flight controls in aircraft, it really confused me that none of the experts knew the formul for calculating torque angle....

Between them they have probably built an accumulative 5 engines....

Adam · 07-28-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

One of my Clients made a visit to the facility here... Shortly after that he posted positive comments here on 986 forum as well as PPBB, infact it was the same post on both boards.

The "High Sheriff" over on PPBB had his post deleted almost immediately, when he asked why there was no explanation.. Here on this forum a few days later someone aslked where the post had gone, so I made a fairly firm post about it and how unfair it was since the poster was not anything more than a purchaser with an opinion after seeing what we were doing first hand. I continued to post on PPBB..

Then, after THREE MONTHS the head honcho from PPBB gets on a power trip after he finally sees my comment here and sends me an email "asking" me not to post there again.. I sent a reply of apology and tried to make everything right, he never replied...

Thats OK.. I have a plan. (Marines always do)

PBBB is pretty much a social club as mentioned below. They tend to kick off or run off anyone with knowledge or expertise. Just ask Tool Pants...they booted him off too. People who are serious about wrenching on their Boxster know that is not a good resource for info. That site tends to attract Boxster owners who want to talk about the weather or their 401K plan or how they got a rez at some trendy restaurant.

True enthusiasts that actually wrench on their cars and drive them visit sites like this one. Keep on doing what you do Jake and don't worry about the naysayers, we need more people out there like you.

Jake Raby · 07-28-2009, 05:28 PM

Thanks guys... I think the key is in sharing through books and other reference materials.. We have data that no one else does and we deserved to be compensated for gathering it...

Over on PPBB I keep seeing people referring to "experts" that don't share our views, but for some of reason none of these people are ever named.. I'd be wiling to bet they haven't even built a single M96 engine...

I have never fancied "experts" and I have been refusing that title for the better part of 15 years... Its pure BS.

Bladecutter · 07-28-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Unfortunately that 2% has a voice that is much louder than the 98%... If I were going to have to listen to flack for sharing information I should at least charge for it...

It really does suck for everyone... People only think I am trying to sell them something, hell I don't even sell an exhaust system!

Their is a perfect example of this non sense over on PPBB now, where a bunch of armchair wrench turners that have never touched our billet magnetic drain plug or low temp thermostat are challenging their effectiveness.. They are basing their opinions on assumption and are seriously piossing me off. I have the data and drive and test the cars daily that are equipped with the components.

Well, you know, I actually wouldn't mind paying to have access to see your test information. If you wanted to make a small section of your Flat 6 Innovations site restricted access for 5 or 10 dollars a year, or whatever, I wouldn't mind paying to have access you your latest test data.

I'm probably not the only one, too.

As for the PPBB, that would be the reason why I'm just a lurker there, and haven't even created an account as of yet, though I've been watching it since February when I bought my car. I found this forum first, then found the Rennlist forums, which are also pretty fantastic, but are only for technical issues (don't try to post anything else!), and then PPBB. There are some posts that I read through, but everyone is correct, that its a forum consisting mostly of fluff, and concern for the stock holdings of the elite.

Only once in a great while do they actually discuss technical stuff to help someone repair a car, and then its mostly just chassis related. But, its a forum that serves its purpose, and makes them very happy, so it isn't a bad forum, in the grand scheme of things. Their politics and post policing tendencies is what pulls them down at times, however.

As for the people talking through their plush posteriors about things that they have no experience with, the answer is simple: They don't want to know the truth and you're not going to force it down their throats.

Those of us who actually have experience with engine performance will know they're full of excrement, and will devalue their statements accordingly.

BC.