Jake Raby exhaust evaluation

[Jake Raby]

I hate to ask, but why do you care about the people who are going to argue about cold hard facts? They will always exist, and they will always be vocal, but why let them have that warm feeling inside that they can keep you under their boot?

I have hadc to fight opposition with the sharing of knowledge in the aircooled world for years and don't want to make the same mistakes with the M96 that I have with the other engines I have manipulated.

Fact is there is nothing worse than working for days gathering dat and setting up test gear only to post it and have someone who reads tech articles with no practical application experience at all challenge it... That happens and I really don't have the tolerance for it, especially when giving the information away for free.

I already receive more crap through email than you can imagine from people that are still in denial that their engine can break... Some are down right nasty!

I personally don't care much about sound changes nor do I care about installing expensive exhaust systems, but I do care about knowledge. I enjoy the sound of my stock '98 Boxster, and don't have any plans on installing a different muffler for a different sound, but I wouldn't mind knowing if there is a better set of headers that I can install that might increase the low to medium range torque on my car.

I understand and appreciate your view point. It is much like mine. The answer is you can get 1-3Hp from the headers more than likely, buit it won't be astounding.. And you might shear off 2-3 exhaust flange bolts during the install and that can cost you days or hundreds of dollars to repair.

I had a wonderful experience a couple Fridays ago by taking my Boxster out onto HPR (http://www.highplainsraceway.com). One thing I noticed is that some of the corners I needed to be in second gear, because if I was in third gear, I would be between 3k and 4k rpms, while trying to climb uphill, and the 2.5 could definitely use a boost of torque in that rev range.

That means you need a flatter torque curve and more mid range grunt... Something I have gotten from a chamshaft change or a valve timing alteration that deviates from stock. The exhaust system might actually hurt the performance you are looking for..

Everywhere else on the track, the car is perfect.

every car has some corner or portion of the track where the power isn't what it should be.

I love reading about your methodology when it comes to testing a theory.
Unfortunately, you are worried about what 2% of the people are going to say about the results of your data. The other 98% of us don't care about that 2%.

Unfortunately that 2% has a voice that is much louder than the 98%... If I were going to have to listen to flack for sharing information I should at least charge for it...

It really does suck for everyone... People only think I am trying to sell them something, hell I don't even sell an exhaust system!

Their is a perfect example of this non sense over on PPBB now, where a bunch of armchair wrench turners that have never touched our billet magnetic drain plug or low temp thermostat are challenging their effectiveness.. They are basing their opinions on assumption and are seriously piossing me off. I have the data and drive and test the cars daily that are equipped with the components.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

I have hadc to fight opposition with the sharing of knowledge in the aircooled world for years and don't want to make the same mistakes with the M96 that I have with the other engines I have manipulated.

Fact is there is nothing worse than working for days gathering dat and setting up test gear only to post it and have someone who reads tech articles with no practical application experience at all challenge it... That happens and I really don't have the tolerance for it, especially when giving the information away for free.

I already receive more crap through email than you can imagine from people that are still in denial that their engine can break... Some are down right nasty!


I understand and appreciate your view point. It is much like mine. The answer is you can get 1-3Hp from the headers more than likely, buit it won't be astounding.. And you might shear off 2-3 exhaust flange bolts during the install and that can cost you days or hundreds of dollars to repair.


That means you need a flatter torque curve and more mid range grunt... Something I have gotten from a chamshaft change or a valve timing alteration that deviates from stock. The exhaust system might actually hurt the performance you are looking for..


every car has some corner or portion of the track where the power isn't what it should be.


Unfortunately that 2% has a voice that is much louder than the 98%... If I were going to have to listen to flack for sharing information I should at least charge for it...

It really does suck for everyone... People only think I am trying to sell them something, hell I don't even sell an exhaust system!

Their is a perfect example of this non sense over on PPBB now, where a bunch of armchair wrench turners that have never touched our billet magnetic drain plug or low temp thermostat are challenging their effectiveness.. They are basing their opinions on assumption and are seriously piossing me off. I have the data and drive and test the cars daily that are equipped with the components.

Jake, as I told Charles, remember the old line about "leading a horse to water"......... Both you and Charles need to keep the faith and keep up your great efforts, for as you have seen, "they know not what they do........" We can only hope that they eventually wake up and see the light………..

[Jake Raby]

So... Why don't we see if some good can come from this crossposting and the war between the forums.

When I wrote Rob back after his email a few months ago I agreed to disagree and to move forward and try to make this all work out.

Since this thread has brought a lot of things to light I'd still be willing to sponsor their site and offer information much like I do here... and do so without any self promotion.. Skyler posted there that I was still welcome to post, but thats not what Rob had emailed to me.

I think that how we handle this situation now says more about the people involved than anything else and I am certainly open to working out the details and abiding by their rules... I abide by everyone elses and have been since Rennlist was still a "list"....

I am open, lets just see if they are.. If any PPBB admin would like to chat, just let me know as I feel we can resolve this for the mutual benefit of the entire community and the M96 engine.

[jmatta]

I'm sorry to continue the hijack of this thread, but I posted a comment defending the magnetic drain plug on PPBB and also mentioned the low temp t-stat, which took on a life of it's own. I am not an engineer, but a Porsche owner and truly appreciate the work Jake and Charles have put into making these cars more reliable. I have upgraded my '02 S with the "easy" components (i.e. external) in hopes it will extend the longevity of my engine.

There are those that will argue every point, regardless of what makes sense or is factual...I don't have time for them and can see how it can be very frustrating dealing with their uninformed comments and opinions. Let their engine implode (if they even own one) then see who they go crying to.

BTW, I've deleted my link to PPBB; the place didn't impress me anyway. Too many "so called" experts that want to argue everything, except their own opinion.


J Matta
aka JGM911

[renzop]

There is nothing wrong with PPBB. There is nothing wrong with 986 forum. If you don't like one, don't go there. Web forums are communities and like real-world, physical communities, they acquire the personalities, prejudices and proclivities of those that live there. If those folks ain't your kinda folks its very easy to move out. But don't bash them. It lowers people's opinion of the basher not the bashee.

[jmatta]

My intent was not to bash the posters at PPBB; I just feel the place is too "clique-ish" for my taste, hence my de-link. JPA in PA does his best to make reason...he must like abuse.

For me, I enjoy the technical discussions and have learned quite a bit about our engines from Jake and Charles. To read the posts where everything and anything is challenged ("the sky isn't really blue") gets old.

[Stefan (Boston)]

I think it's ok to challenge that the sky is blue as long as you also challenge that the Earth is flat.

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Unfortunately that 2% has a voice that is much louder than the 98%... If I were going to have to listen to flack for sharing information I should at least charge for it...

It really does suck for everyone... People only think I am trying to sell them something, hell I don't even sell an exhaust system!

Their is a perfect example of this non sense over on PPBB now, where a bunch of armchair wrench turners that have never touched our billet magnetic drain plug or low temp thermostat are challenging their effectiveness.. They are basing their opinions on assumption and are seriously piossing me off. I have the data and drive and test the cars daily that are equipped with the components.

Well, you know, I actually wouldn't mind paying to have access to see your test information. If you wanted to make a small section of your Flat 6 Innovations site restricted access for 5 or 10 dollars a year, or whatever, I wouldn't mind paying to have access you your latest test data.

I'm probably not the only one, too.

As for the PPBB, that would be the reason why I'm just a lurker there, and haven't even created an account as of yet, though I've been watching it since February when I bought my car. I found this forum first, then found the Rennlist forums, which are also pretty fantastic, but are only for technical issues (don't try to post anything else!), and then PPBB. There are some posts that I read through, but everyone is correct, that its a forum consisting mostly of fluff, and concern for the stock holdings of the elite.

Only once in a great while do they actually discuss technical stuff to help someone repair a car, and then its mostly just chassis related. But, its a forum that serves its purpose, and makes them very happy, so it isn't a bad forum, in the grand scheme of things. Their politics and post policing tendencies is what pulls them down at times, however.

As for the people talking through their plush posteriors about things that they have no experience with, the answer is simple: They don't want to know the truth and you're not going to force it down their throats.

Those of us who actually have experience with engine performance will know they're full of excrement, and will devalue their statements accordingly.

BC.

[blackbox]

since I am the person that started this thread about exhaust systems, I find it funny that other members (jake excluded...haha) are more interested in discussing other forums. I think we are getting a little off subject.

Thanks for the quick response Jake. I only asked about testing because I wanted to modify my stock exhaust for sound without loosing any hp or torque. I am currently running a stock 3.2. I look forward to any more test data you can offer.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by blackbox

since I am the person that started this thread about exhaust systems, I find it funny that other members (jake excluded...haha) are more interested in discussing other forums. I think we are getting a little off subject.

Thanks for the quick response Jake. I only asked about testing because I wanted to modify my stock exhaust for sound without loosing any hp or torque. I am currently running a stock 3.2. I look forward to any more test data you can offer.

Sorry to have taken your thread off onto a wild tangent...

None of my developments have been made for sound and they never will be... I only concern myself with gains in torque, HP, Efficiency and RPM range... I always want a car to be faster than it sounds :-)

Sound can be an additional byproduct of other performance attributes, but its not something I shoot for as a particular goal... Otherwise I'd be just as guilty as all the guys building "fart cans" with no development behind them at all...