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Old 05-31-2009, 02:08 PM   #1
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Brake Fade at a DE

So yesterday my girlfriend and I went to a PCA DE at Pacific Raceways. She took the Boxster and I took the 944. I got some video that I will have posted on YouTube later today. Anyways, my 944 suffered some "loose bolt syndrome" a long with a broken tie-rod end. So I took the Boxster out for the next session and on the second lap went down an escape road because I found myself without enough brakes.

I originally was not very happy with the feel of the brakes on the Boxster compared to the 944. So last fall/winter I left the rotors as is, but put Porterfield R4s pads and full flush and bleed with Motul RBF 600. The 944 has the same fluid, stainless lines and R4 pads. The result after bedding was a good pedal feel and good braking. With thousands of street miles I have been quite happy with the way they have been performing. But at the track, the brakes were already warm/hot and one sharp stab from 140mph to 80 and I could smell that organic pad smell. The next corner was down hill and very tight. I mashed the pedal but had very little stopping power.

I took the car out after letting them cool then again later in the day, and if I was kind to the brakes they were ok... Danielle was not nearly as hard on them and never really had a problem.

My question to those on the board that track their cars is this; with a stock setup, who here has experienced a high level of fade? I want to make sure that it really was just me asking too much and not something wrong with the system. I have another DE in June at Fontana (Autoclub speedway?) and if I'm going to drive the box, I need different pads. I am leaning towards Hawk HT-10's and new rotors (mine have no cracks, but may be getting a little thin).

I have found a number of suggestions on what pads are good and so forth, but I also don't know how many people have overheated the stock setup. Also if larger brake ducts would help or not enough to worry about it.

One last thing, The 987 turned 70K on the way to the track and enjoyed (nearly) every minute of it. Burned 0 oil. And the Sumitomos stuck FAR better than I would have ever expected. Very progressive break away and good traction in the corners. They just earned that much more in my book for doing as well as they did.

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Old 06-01-2009, 07:22 AM   #2
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Were the pads thoroughly bedded? Could it have been green pad fade? Maybe the Porterfield folks will have an opinion. With Motul 600, I couldn't belive that the fluid boiled.

BTW -- Auto Club Speedway = California Speedway = Fontana. The marketing deal to rename it Auto Club Speedway began in early 2008.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:39 AM   #3
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Yeah, I just found out about that recently. I always had known it as California Speedway. But I have been out of the state for a while.

The pads had many thousands of street miles on them, and I was very careful about bedding in when they first went on.

I think I may have vaporized the pad, and the extra effort required to stop built up a ton of heat into the calipers. I might talk to the Porterfield guys to see what they think. I know I have also experienced brake fade in a 944 that had R4s's, but not quite to the same degree and not quite so quickly.
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Old 06-07-2009, 05:06 PM   #4
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Aren't these a HP street pad like the HPS?

If so, don't expect a lot on the track from them. I had a HPS clone on for a while and they weren't even as good as the OEM.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:04 PM   #5
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I have boiled old fluid at the track but never felt pad fade/overheat in this car. I still run street tires.

A couple of things to check:
1. make sure all the little rubber air ducts and spoilers are in place under the car. Mine had been scrubbed off over time and they do help manage brake temps.

2. check for a sticking caliper. When one of my service trucks starts eating pads it is nearly always a caliper that does not fully release causing overheated pads.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:41 PM   #6
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The air ducts are good, I will check them again when I have the wheels off to flush the fluid again.

All the pads are wearing well, I don't think there are sticking calipers. My 944's rears were acting up, but those are sliding calipers.

The R4s is like the hawk HP+. They are aggressive street pads. I didn't expect them to be perfect, but was surprised how fast they went away.

I ordered a set of Hawk HT-10s for the front. They work from 300-1600 degrees. The rotors would be glowing bright red before the pads give up.

I was/am running street tires, but that was part of the problem. I had to slow down a lot because I couldn't go around the corner as fast as if I had race tires. Therefore relying more on my brakes.

I will report on how the setup works at Fontana.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:45 PM   #7
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I've had pad fade with OEMs on an '03S.... switched to Pagid Orange. One tidbit may help mitigate some heat - bought some GT3 lower air scoops for the lower control arm. It's a straight swap. They seem to channel more air into the hub area. And, about the cheapest things on the car at about $15 each from Sunset.

Good luck,

kj
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Old 06-08-2009, 06:02 AM   #8
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GT3 brake ducts

Boxster44:
Was there a noticeable change with the GT3 ducts or hard to discern? I'm also thinking about these..
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Old 06-08-2009, 07:26 AM   #9
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Mike,

I changed the two items simultaneously.... the Pagids were a big help (but tough on rotors). I'm thinking the scoops/ducts are just one of the little things that add to the equation.

kj

Last edited by Boxster44; 06-08-2009 at 07:29 AM. Reason: add'l
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Old 06-10-2009, 06:48 AM   #10
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Dump the Porterfields like a bad habit and stay away from the Hawks. The Porterfields work GREAT on lightweight cars, not our 3200lb turds. I use the R4's in a lot of cars with NO ABS and under 1800lbs.

Pagid. Black or Orange.

and a tibit: if the pads you are running are UNDER 5mm's on thickness.. toss them out or keep them for an emergency backup. The pads partially relies on "thickness" to help dissipate heat.

Her running the car: she may not have been using them as hard, but I guarantee she was using them more. It is in inherent to ALL newbies. They ALL overcook the brakes at their first 1-2 track events before they understand what the car can do (guessing this was her 1st or 2nd track event) unless of course they have some AutoX experience where somebody taught them threshhold braking.

I'll be at Fontucky for the DE on the 15th. Track me down. I'll help you bleed the brakes and show you the fastest way to get ALL the fluid out of the calipers.


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Old 06-15-2009, 07:03 PM   #11
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Hey brad, been kinda busy and didn't get your post till now. Otherwise I would have talked to you, I'm sure I saw you at some point there.

I put the Hawk HT-10's on the front and was more than pleased with their performance. I use a Motive power bleeder and there was no discoloration or air in the calipers from the last event, but the wear sensors were melted.

I dropped the Hawks in and with 2 people driving it, the car stopped like hitting a brick wall and never began to fade. I was having tons of fun for the fact that I was on Sumi- street tires.

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2005 987 - 112K miles PASM + 6-speed - Daily Driver
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1974 911 Targa - new project
2009 Triumph Street Triple R - 27K mi - Blazen Orange
1976 Ford F250 camper special - tow vehicle
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