catastrophic failure - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

csu15919 · 03-11-2008, 12:09 AM

my worst fear has finally arrived. after my issues in my previous post, i went ahead and replaced my exhaust with the fabspeed setup. after spending the better part of the day trying to get the stupid thing installed (it came with NO BOLTS and NO INSTRUCTIONS), my car was finally ready to fire up. i cleaned the maf (it was throwing codes), turned the key, and the car started but will some sputtering involved. i shut her down, tried to figure out what was still going on and still kept pulling air/fuel metering codes. at that point, i figured i'd just order a new maf and 4 o2 sensors and try to solve the problem. in the meantime, i could hear an exhaust leak, and needed the car to idle so that i could find the leak, and atleast have that part all situated. well now, the car didn't want to hold idle...well, at that point i was highly frustrated and should've just not messed with it until i got my new sensors, but i was determined to atleast get it to idle. after roughly 3-4 times of getting it to start up and die, the car finally decided it wasn't going to take it. i turned the key again...then i hear "CLICK" and no motor spin....OH BOY! i pull the starter off, it spins freely. i pull the plugs out figuring maybe i was starting to flood the cylinders and got a little hydra-lock, and to my surprise...one plug was severely crushed on the end, further aknowledging my suspicions of hydra-lock. so, now with the plugs pulled, i try to atleast turn the motor again, and i still only get a loud "CLICK."

at this point, i remove the access panel behind the seats, and attempt to rotate the crank by hand...well, the crank wouldn't move in the clockwise position...so i try to rotate it couterclockwise, and it moved freely, then gets to a point where it gets stuck....i go back clockwise, it moves but finally hangs up again. long story short, there's something definitely wrong inside of my motor. i'm thinking that i squashed a piston, and it's binding when it gets to TDC, or maybe broke a ring or the lip of the piston, and it starts to bind against the cyylinder wall, or lastly...i jumped timing during my repeated start cycles and i have a valve hitting the top of a piston. either way it goes, i'll be removing the motor and having a peak inside. what an expensive lesson learned...

blue2000s · 03-11-2008, 12:47 AM

This isn't hydro-lock. Nothing you've described could have caused hydro-lock. The car will run without a MAF attached at all, so I don't think that was the cause of your problem. Cam timing on these engines is by chain, the chance of the timing running off and the piston smashing a valve is really slim.

From your description, it sounds like either something internal broke off and was loose or the engine ingested something solid.

csu15919 · 03-11-2008, 01:18 AM

actually, i was thinking the hydra-lock came from when this whole deal started. i was actually having an issue with oil coming through my intake and through the exhaust. i do know the car will run without the MAF, but it doesn't change the fact that i was having MAF issues (the initial breakdown story is in one of my previous post). when i first started having issues, the car would only run with the MAF unplugged. i know the timing is chain driven, and know how rare it is for a chain to jump time unless you have a tensioner or guide fail, but i do have another car with chain driven timing, and i had the chain jump on me and had these same exact symtoms (an intake valve was hitting the piston, and wouldn't let the motor complete a revolution...happened in my nissan 240sx). i really want to drop the pan today, and try to see what i can see. it kinda sucks because i just changed the oil after i installed everything yesterday...and we all know...mobil 1 isn't cheap!

Topless · 03-11-2008, 06:19 AM

It sounds like you are over your head on this one. Time to get a second opinion from a Porsche mechanic in your area who can actually get his hands on your car. She has had a rough month and needs an experienced tech to get her healthy again. Search your area for a good indy and flatbed her there to sort all this out. Maybe it's not too late.

Clint Eastwood said it best... " A man's gotta know his limitations."

Brucelee · 03-11-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topless

It sounds like you are over your head on this one. Time to get a second opinion from a Porsche mechanic in your area who can actually get his hands on your car. She has had a rough month and needs an experienced tech to get her healthy again. Search your area for a good indy and flatbed her there to sort all this out. Maybe it's not too late.

Clint Eastwood said it best... " A man's gotta know his limitations."

that is a great quote. Of course, how do you know you are not just being lazy?

csu15919 · 03-11-2008, 07:19 PM

yeah i hear you. i already had her taken to this guy's shop just to get another opinion. this guy is pretty good. he's from germany, and owns a european transmission company (he actually gave me a lot of help with rebuilding a mercedes tranny for my mom's car), but he also builds porsches as a hobby (probably should've went to him in the begining...but i guess i didn't know when to quit). it's funny, that eastwood quote kinda stuck to me. when i first read it, i was thinking to myself..."dude, i hold an aviation maintenance degree, hold an A&P license, and have helped keep many of airplanes from making a smoking hole in someone's backyard...therefore...the sky is my limit." but you know, i guess it's not a bad idea to put things in someone else's hands, especially if it's to benefit you.

this whole situation kinda sucks because when i think back to when i first bought the car (jan. of 07), about a month later i remember coming home and oil was literally raining from under the car. due to the fact that the car came from an independent dealer, i wanted it checked out by the porsche dealer. long story short, the indy dealer apparently noticed oil on the motor, and had the valve cover gaskets replaced but did an idiotic thing by having the cam plug RTV'ed in. he refused to re-inburse me to pay porsche to have the gaskets redone (cost me $1800). Secondly, he tried to stiff me on the money i paid for the extended warranty by not turning in the warranty info (which only covered internally lubricated parts anyway, and wouldn't have helped with the first issue), and i had to literally threaten him to refund my money (another $1800 paid up front). and now that i sit back, i wonder if that first oil problem i had, has something to do with how the motor got to the point it's at now, AND if he would've just done his job with the warranty stuff, i probably would be covered under this little problem i'm having now. it's just all really stressing right now, and like i said before...i'm learning an EXPENSIVE lesson.

the best thing i did do when i purchased the vehicle, was have myself a "porsche slush fund."

blue2000s · 03-11-2008, 07:44 PM

Keep us posted. I'm interested to hear what happened.

blinkwatt · 03-11-2008, 08:21 PM

Could you post pics of the crushed spark plug?

Lil bastard · 03-11-2008, 08:49 PM

I really feel for you and hope it all works out OK.

We see alot of guys, pining to have a Stuttgart label on the front, and trying to do it on the cheap.

Problem is, with a Porsche, cheap is never CHEAP!

There's lots of guys out there willing to take advantage of you because they reason that if you have a Porsche, you can probably afford it (and some who think you deserve it).

Best advice is to have it professionally evaluated and put it right, even if it means engine replacement (think Upgrade). The upside is that once complete, you'll most likely agree it's worth it.

If that's too steep for you right now, sell it off, take the loss, lick your wounds, and come back when you're better prepared.

There is never a shortage of good Boxsters on the Market, and getting the right one is sweet indeed.

Best of Luck!!!!!!

csu15919 · 03-12-2008, 06:19 PM

here's pics of the bent spark plug

JP-s-in st. louis · 03-12-2008, 07:21 PM

My guess is that you did not have the wires attached completely to that coil pack. This would not allow that plug to fire and then have the plug crushed by the piston. But that is just my .02...Maybe not even that much.

David N. · 03-12-2008, 07:53 PM

Sounds like a perfect time for an engine upgrade!

Lil bastard · 03-12-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP-s-in st. louis

My guess is that you did not have the wires attached completely to that coil pack. This would not allow that plug to fire and then have the plug crushed by the piston. But that is just my .02...Maybe not even that much.

I don't see where that could happen, though I may be wrong. How would a spark failing to fire cause the piston to travel higher in the cylinder than it normally would? And, don't we have a spark cut-out type rev limiter? When that kicks in you don't have the pistons impacting the plugs.

I would seem to me that the center eletrode and it's porcelain insulator would be much less robust than the grounds and would sustain more damage than the grounds if struck by a piston, which from the pics doesn't seem to be the case.

Looks more to me that there was something bouncing around inside the cylinder, broken ring, or even a sheared piston. That could go along with the excessive cranking - the starter puts out a lot of torque and can easily break rings and pistons in some circumstances.

There were failures of some of the cylinder lips on earlier cars, always cylinders #3 and #4 attributed to the block torqueing like this:

Wonder if something like that occurred?

Doesn't sound like hydro-lock though. It's usually the pistons which take the beating from that. And, once the plugs were pulled, all sorts of gas/oil/coolant would have come gushing out.

A borescope would give better information, but the engine would need to be torn down anyway, so it may not that helpful either.

Everything here is a guess. The only way to know for sure is to have a pro check it out.

csu15919 · 03-12-2008, 10:56 PM

brief update, i finally got a hold of a tech who does a little business on the side. i went ahead and put the car back on my lift, and this evening he's going to swing by and take a look at it. he did mention the deal to me about the cylinder liners cracking/failing and said that it's fairly common on the 996 motors, and somewhat on the 3.2 S motors. he also mentioned the motor jumping time. he claims that some of the earlier models had issues with the chain guides having to be replaced often, and the tensioners also. basically, his intial speculations are right in line with me and everyone else, and hopefully tomorrow we'll get somewhere with this. by the way, that plug was removed from cyl. 2 (center cylinder on passenger side of motor).

alright, so considering my motor is done, and with the research i've done thus far....is it feasible to install larger cylinder liners in the 3.2 case? so far, i've found that the 3.2 and 3.4 share the same bottom end, just with a larger bore on the liners in the 3.4. i'm thinking maybe run 3.6 liners (i doubt you'd be able to safely bore the 3.2 to 3.6), with some nice head work would be somewhat cost effective in terms of upgrading. it's just a random type of thought.

Lil bastard · 03-12-2008, 11:57 PM

@CSU15919

As I understand it, the liners are cast-in-place and not easily swapped like many other engines.

There are companies who do this work. One of the most interesting is AutoFarm in the UK.

Don't know what kind of budget you're working with or what your ultimate goals are.

It is usually easier/cheaper to just do a total swap for a 3.2 - 3.6.

AutoFarm can bore it out up to 4.0, but they're pricey. + I don't know what arrangements or costs are available for shipment to the US.

Nevertheless, their site has a good bit of info. See them at - http://www.autofarm.co.uk/

Topless · 03-13-2008, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csu15919

here's pics of the bent spark plug

I hate it when plugs look like that! I have not been inside a 986 motor but normally a rogue piston will slam into the head before ever making contact with the plug so something else is banging around in there... chunks o sleeve, chunks o valve, chunks o rings etc.

The video scope is a good idea. Sometimes you can rent one and run it in the spark plug hole before dropping the motor. At least then you will know what you are up against. I had a broken valve spring in a 6cyl Volvo marine engine once with similar symptoms. I heard the racket and shut her down right away. I pulled the head, replaced the thrashed valve, spring and guides, cleaned up the divots in the piston and logged another 700 hrs on that motor. I was very lucky. Lets hope you have such an easy fix.

Frank M · 03-13-2008, 10:42 AM

Somehow your engine ingested a small solid object. Probably when you had the air intake exposed.
After ingestion, the object sat at the bottom of the cylinder during a shutdown and restart. When it got wedged between the head and piston is when it broke the liner.
This object also damaged the plug at one point.

Hydroloc bends connecting rods and the symptom will be low compression after the bending takes place.

csu15919 · 03-14-2008, 02:12 AM

man, that porsche tech didn't tell me anything that i didn't already know, or anything that you guys haven't already mentioned. i kinda think it frustrated him a little bit, because he was finally like "man, we need to just take this thing out of here." the rods all looked good, so we eliminated the bottom end from the equation. lol, i've been going through my tools expecting to find a socket missing or SOMETHING! it's driving me nuts. the tech was like "this is so weird, everything sounds so smooth, even when the motor jams, it's almost like it should just work!" he didn't really have much time to stick around, but he said he'll come back by this either this evening or saturday.

he made somewhat of a valid point also, in reference to a lot of our local shops. it's hard to find a shop around that'll actually take the time to figure it out and most will just say "time for a new motor! porsche didn't design these things to be fixed!" i may pick at it a little more today depending on the weather. i've only ridden my motorcycle once this year, so i may just try to enjoy myself!

mn box s · 03-21-2008, 09:23 AM

One thing that has not been mentioned... Journal bearings if you spin a bearing (2 "C" shaped metal pieces that float between the rod and crank). These damn things are known to slide under each other which will cause the throw to be longer in both directions. Your rod may look fine or even be fine so just double check to see if this has happened. Common fix for this as follows: new custom bearings to be machined, crank machining, new rod, head to be decked and new piston. I read the bottom was fine, I'm just saying take another look for this if it has not been done. You described this problem.

blue2000s · 05-06-2008, 10:11 AM

So what ever happened here?