Brakes - stay stock or upgrade?
 

is there much point in upgrading brakes on a base 2000 boxster?

the car needs new pads, probably rotors. i'm not goign to change the calipers, or do anything major. i just wondered if swapping to slotted/drilled or some other style of rotor would offer any REAL noticeable benefit??

the car is a weekend car drivenon the street only. no track time.

i'll probably just do stock parts. i'll do the work myself to save $$ on labor at the stealership.

Porsche have the best brakes in the industry. I read one of the top auto-x guy over at renntech uses only stock pads.

You can "upgrade" the fronts of the 986 to the 987 rotors and pads.

if I upgrade to 987 rotors/pads are they larger/heavier or same size? lighter?

i'd only do it if it was better for performance. the stock brakes are great - i don't need "bigger" blingy looking rotors. i know the 987 has more power than my car so they may have put larger brakes on it..perhaps larger than I even need.

i dont want more unsprung weight. are the 987 pads/rotors bigger/heavier?

i just got a call from the dealer. they want $800 to do the front pads/rotors and $780 to do rears.

i went online and found pelicanparts... i know there are plenty of other places to buy OEM parts, maybe even cheaper..but my first search generated a cost of about half what the dealer is quoting me... so 1/2 the cost is labor.

from past experience on other cars, pads and rotors is a no brainer easy job. it might even be fun. my dad is selling me his car - it's in teh shop now for the PPI. the only thing the car neededd is brakes and tires. my dad offered to help me put on the brakes - fun father son thing.. even at my age of 36 it would be fun to spend the day with dad doin brakes. :)

i'll probably just stay totally stock. i noted some websites sell generic zimmerman rotors... or cheaper pads...

what pads are considered OEM? pelican had pads by Mintex, pagid, and Textar. they state textar is the OEM supplier. also the most $$

Do it yourself...it's an easy job. Search around and you'll find complete instructions along with photos. Here's one suggestion: buy a Motive Power Bleeder and change the fluid. ATE blue is a good choice. If you are interested in a firmer pedal feel, stainless steel brake lines make a big difference, and they're an easy swap while you are doing the rest of the brake work.

987 front discs might be SLIGHTLY bigger but they are cross drilled and FELT lighter to me in my hand then the 986. Pads are probably the same however the 987 does have a different part number.

Cost between 987 and 986 parts are pretty much a wash

anyone know if the 987 rotors ARE lighter?

on the same topic - I was searching online for rotors and found quite a few places that sell zimmerman rotors that come precross drilled. i could get the same "look"but keep OEM sizes,e tc.

my only issue is that I don't know whether it's advised to stay with OEM porsche stuff. on all my other cars i just used gneric stuff and all worked fine.

anyone here swear by the OEM stuff or think that generic zimmerman rotors are fine, and then go with a decent quality pad? i'm not looking for race compound pads or anyting, just a nice pad for street spiritied driving - stock pads or stock equialent generics are probably fine.

any suggestiosn on pad/rotor combos that don't cost an arm and a leg like dealer prices but still perform as well or better?

I'm a little confused. What are you trying to accomplish? Bigger rotors won't stop you quicker.. they just dissipate heat quicker. Your tires are more important to quicker stopping than bigger rotors. If you're only driving on the street with no track or auto-x time (which you stated), then heat dissipation is no issue for you. I'd stay with oem rotors and mintex redbox, hawk, pagid, axxis, or even oem (except for the dust) pads for the street. All are fine. Some with more or less dust than others. Some with more or less rotor wear than others. But all are good pads.

A 986 to 987 rotor swap, as I understand it, is NOT a straight swap. New calipers and pads would be required. And perhaps other hardware. (I haven't done it but read elsewhere that this is the case... I could be wrong on that) . The stock, straight-from-the-factory brake hardware is world class. For the everyday driving that you state you do, they will never fade, overheat or otherwise lose it. So.. unless you're hitting the abs everytime you brake, and are as a result overheating the pads and getting fade, I'm not sure what "upgraded" brakes will do for you. (Track time not included! My second day ever at the track the stock brakes started fading. I upgraded my track pads to Pagid Orange with stock rotors. Never a hint of a fade since on many many track days.)

And yes.. if you haven't changed your brake fluid you need to... like right now!! ATE Blue or Gold wold be a good choice. About $14 on line from several vendors. Brake fluid is hygroscopic (it absorbs water, which is very very bad for brake fluid since its non-compressible (water that is). Pus it, water, boils at 212F...at which point you have no brakes. And since the temp of the fluid in the calipers gets quite a bit above 212 F during braking...not good..at all). Porsche recommends changing the fluid every two (? could be every) years. (I change mine twice a year so I don't know the recommended change interval, other than its at least once every two years). Change your brake fluid. :cheers:

Bob

This seems to be the brake question day on the forum! :cheers:

I agree totally. I changed the pads and flushed the brakes on my 01 base and I've never even witnessed a brake job before. I went with Mintex redbox and ordered the Motive power bleeder, brake fluid and pads from Pelican. Not a bad price and got free shipping on the whole deal. Just make sure before you order the brake fluid you check the master cylinder to see what color fluid your are currently using and buy the opposite or you won't be able to tell when the old stuff is flushed out. IIRC the rotors aren't that difficult either, but I didn't have to do mine because they only had 35k on them. Just read and re-read the instructions before proceeding and you'll do fine. Took me a total of 3 hours for all four corners.

986 to 987 FRONT parts ARE a straight parts only swap. Double check your references Bob. I'm on my second round of 987 Discs and Pads on my 2001 986. AGAIN FRONT ONLY ARE A STRAIGHT SWAP.

23109 - If you end up buying zimmerman discs make sure you paint the hats on the disc. The coating from the factory suck and they will rust VERY fast.

[QUOTE=TriGem2k]986 to 987 FRONT parts ARE a straight parts only swap. Double check your references Bob. I'm on my second round of 987 Discs and Pads on my 2001 986. AGAIN FRONT ONLY ARE A STRAIGHT SWAP.

Glad to know that. As I said, I could be wrong.

Just making it clear for everyone so they don't go buying both front and then find out the rears wont fit.

It's a falacy that more power requires bigger brakes.

More power will get you 0-60 faster, but the car is still going to stop in the same distance from 60 (or any other speed) as before. The Boxster brakes are some of the best in the business and are more than sufficient for any modding a DIYer would do short of doing a lot of track or auto-x work. People are either misinformed, or they simply like the peacock effect of larger brakes, drilled and slotted rotors, etc.

If you substantially increase the weight, say by 500 or more lbs. then bigger brakes may be in order to maintain the same stopping distance.

Blanket statements like that are rarely true. In the Boxster's case, the brakes are already about as good as they get for its normal performance use, like DE or AX.

However, it's a fact that more horsepower on the track will provide higher entry speeds into the corners. With higher entry speeds, you will need more braking to haul the car down to the speed the corner requires. Even if you brake earlier, you'll still be requiring the brakes to absorb more energy. If they are already near their limits, adding more horsepower *will* overcome your brake's capabilities. Brake fade will result.

In that case, it would be a trueism that "More power requires bigger brakes."

Confirmed.

Stopping distance is mostly a function of weight and tire grip. If you want to stop faster, drop some car weight or add some fat sticky tires or both. A stock base Boxster already has a shorter stopping distance than a Ferrari 575 Maranello. It's no slouch to be sure.

Brake pad/rotor fade and overheat is mostly a function of weight, driving style and brake components. If you often overheat your brakes something is probably wrong: sticking caliper, lost cooling ducts, poor braking technique etc. Find the problem and fix it for 1/20th the cost of all new upgraded brake components.

Spongy, imprecise brake feel at the end of a long track session on a hot day is most likely brake fluid approaching it's boiling point. A well known Porsche problem. This is often misdiagnosed as brake pad fade. If you do a lot of track days just use a good high temp brake fluid and change it once a year.

If you add a bunch of horsepower should you upgrade your brake components? Maybe. For spirited street driving it is probably still overkill. If you are a fire breathing track hound the answer is probably yes.

For example: An 80hp 914 enters turn one at Streets of Willow at around 90mph. My 200hp 986 enters the same turn at 115mph. A well known 295hp 987S enters at 125mph. The 987S is carrying greater speeds into each turn and weighs a little more. He needs to scrub a lot more energy every turn and is more likely to overheat his brakes. The larger 987S brakes are matched to his higher corner entry speeds and higher heat generated.

So if you track you car a lot and drop in a 3.6L motor, bigger brake components are probably in your future. Otherwise you will probably never notice the difference between well maintained stock brakes and "upgraded" brakes... Except perhaps for that all important "Peacock" factor.

no need for bling.

I just want OEM stuff. I"ll probably order OEM rotors from pelican.

I did a quick check on tirerack, because I'm also buying new tires, and noticed I can get rotors/pads from them. They sell Brembo rotors for about what OEM rotors cost.

Brembo is a big name brand, but is it as good as OEM? better?

I'll probably skip any cross drilled/slotted stuff and jsut get regular rotors.

I have seen the posts here saying I *can* put 987 pads/rotors on the FRONT. are they any lighter than stock? the only benefit I can see to going with them would be if they were ligthter.... if they are bigger it's probably more weight and I don't think I need/want that.

any recommendations on pads for street use?

Brembos are excellent. Equal or better than OEM depending on who supplied that particular model.

For stock pads I highly recommend Hawk HPS. Good up to light track duty, long life, quiet. Tirerack has them for a good price.

so the brembo rotors are as good as OEM or better?

if I order those, plus the Hawk pads that tire rack has - i can just order ALL the stuff I need in one shot.

rotors, pads, and my tires.

although I'm not sure if tire rack sells the sensors or other little parts i might need for a brake job.... my wear light came on and someone said if the light comes on youneed to redo the sensors..

can I resuse all the other components..or are there any little pieces/parts I need to order along with rotors/pads?

I just went on the tirerack website and noted those Hawk HPS pads indicate they do NOT have cutout for the wear sensor...so does that mean you just leave the sensor off totally and forgoe using it? does the sensor light go off or stay lit up all the time?

if i want to retain teh wear sensor and have agood pad, what do you reocmmend..

maybe i'm just right back to OEM stuff.. :) pelican parts here i come

That is correct. The sensor is effectively a destructive test. You only need to replace the one (or more) worn through on the end.

There is a pad spring kit but I keep reusing mine. Porsche recommends new caliper bolts when replacing the rotors, and I think rotor screws too.

Replace the worn sensor and zip tie them out of the way.

how many of you guys replace the caliper bolts when you do brakes???

i've done brakes on a lot of cars and never replaced this stuff... is this just BS to sell parts or do they really stretch/wear?

They really stretch. The large amount of torque spec'd - 63 Ft. Lbs. is fairly close to the limit of the Fastener material's elasticity. Replacing them is more a precautionary note, but still, it is possible they could fail if reused. It doesn't happen very often at all so reusing them at least once isn't that big a deal.

Reusing them repeatedly could cause an issue, but it's more likely the fastener, especially if slightly corroded, would break when trying to remove it rather than failing in use, though that too is possible. Then you're drilling and tapping or using an insert. The likelyhood of failure in a reused bolt is higher than one used only once.

Bleh! :rolleyes: I took my Boxster S for a spirited drive this weekend and the brakes performed wonderfully. I could not imagine though having the weak brakes from my Honduh CRX on the Boxster. There is NO WAY I could have enjoyed the car as much with weak brakes like that. It's all about balance - matching the engine performance with appropriate suspension tuning and braking performance. With my Boxster those performance limits are pretty high and I need brakes to match them. I guess I could have driven it okay with the weak CRX brakes, but I would have had to use half of the available power.

Likewise my weak CRX brakes are okay for that car as it's barely even pushing 100 HP and only has to stop 1850 lbs, but even then they are maybe marginal. I already have a full suspension in the CRX (roll cage, bracing, torsion bars, springs, adjustable shocks, etc.). If I added 200 more horsepower, no weight, and left the brakes the same I'd have to throttle it back and either still drive it the same as I do now or end up dead from overrunning the brakes....

Just for grins... here's my CRX daily driver:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1.../CIMG3326a.jpg

Kirk

It's about weight, or more specifically momentum. Adding power does increase momentum, but only if you use the right foot. A 3000 lb. car with X brake setup will stop in X feet from X Speed. If that same car gets a more powerful engine, it will get to X speed faster than before, but the rest of the variables remain the same.

If tracking the car, where the brakes are applied more fully, and frequently, the larger brakes are an improvement because they shed heat faster and so don't fade as soon. But on the street, where's there's rarely seconds between brake applications, enough time exists between braking for the brakes to cool and not fade.

Don't forget, the difference in stopping distance between the 'S' brakes and Base brakes is only 4' @ 60MPH. Could that 4' make the difference in some rare circumstance? Of course. But that's an endless debate, what if the needed improvement was 5'? Than neither brake setup would have an advantage over the other (for street).

Also remember, the biggest factor in braking is tires, not the brakes. Braking performance is quoted with stock tires and the base model has narrow tiny front tires compared to the 'S'. In my 987 the ABS activates rather quickly because the 205 Conti's have very little grip compared to an 235 Azenis. I could put on much bigger brakes but without better tires or less weight it's not going to stop any quicker.

I can only speak for the S since that is what I have, but on the street the biggest improvement to braking will be tires. The stock brakes are more than adequate to bring you to a stop and will easily overwhelm the gripping ability of the tires. Whether you go with the OEM pad or aftermarket pad is really more about brake dust and cost. I've used OEM and street compounds from Pagid, Hawk, PBR (cheap) and they all work great on the street with differences in dust and initial bite mainly. I liked the Hawk best all around. (I thought it was the Performance Friction at first, but realized I used them as a track pad. I like Pagids better for the track.)

With rotors, I've used OEM and Zimmerman. The only difference is the coating on the hat for the Zimmerman sucks, so you'll want to to recoat it with hi temp paint unless you don't mind rust. Currently, I'm using Zimmerman rotors, which are cross drilled since I have an S. They are about 2-3 years old with about 20 track days. They've held up really well.

The equation is very different on the track. It's about repeated stopping ability. That's where bigger rotors, cross drilling/slotting, hi temp brake fluid, exotic pads, bigger brakes, etc. become more important to dissipate heat to prevent fade and fluid boiling and maintaining consistency. Adding bigger/grippier tires stresses brakes and so does adding horsepower (because you'll be entering the braking zone faster) and, frankly, just being a better driver (because you'll be entering the braking zone faster :).

That said, I'm still using the OEM brakes with Zimmerman OEM placement rotors, ATE fluid and Pagid RS-14 pads (full race compound) with great success. Generally, I "catch up" to others on braking. I was at Buttonwillow yesterday and the only cars out braking me were a GT3 RS with PCCB and a Radical. This was coming from a long straight downshifting from 5th (127 mph) to 2nd (45 mph) (of course they were entering much faster than me). My brakes were solid all day even with doubled up sessions of 40-50 minutes at a time.

I will switch to 2 piece rotors when I need to replace my current rotors--for lower weight mainly and better heat dissipation. I'll keep the existing calipers. If I did an engine swap and picked up another 80 HP, I would likely go with bigger brakes.

I guess my point is that Porsche brakes are fantastic and the mid-engine layout of the Boxster seems to accentuate it further. Spend the money on suspension if you want to go faster. BTW, I was only .3 seconds off the GT3 RS on a track layout that favored high HP cars.

couple of quick questions

I've priced full OEM parts on pelican for my boxster brakes vs. zimmerman and "oem supplier" textar pads.

all OEM genuine porsche = $950
zimmerman + textar = $750

I also ordered 4 brakes sensors, a motive bleeder, and fluid. essentially it's a $200 savings to get zimmerman rotors and textar pads.

for street driving - am I goign to notice any difference in these two options in terms of stopping power?

also - if I get the zimmerman rotors and want to PAINT the hats - do I just get the caliper paint / hi temp stuff at the local pep boys? do you brush it on or get spray and mask off the braking surfaces? do you guys use a gray color, black? what??

i don't mind painting 4 hats to save $200. i can spray them and let them dry overnight, then install the following day.

the dealer wants $1600 to do it for me. they offered me 10% off..so say about $1450 parts+ labor. all OEM stuff.

if I did all OEM parts, i'd be at $1000. 450 labor seems kind of high. if they woudl come down to 1200 i might bite and just let them do it... half of me wants to do it for teh "Fun" and half of me doesn't want to spend the time or get dirty. :)

i have to take the car in anyway for the vacuum leak...

they also do tires/alignments while it's there and I need that too. they are goin to get me bad this time.. :) i need that too...

I doubt you'll notice the difference in Zimmerman rotors and Textar pads, since they are the OEM suppliers.

As for the rotor paint, I believe spray caliper paint or high temp spray paint from your local auto parts store will work. I believe the factory finish is light gray. Just be sure to mask off the rotor surface and especially the bolt holes.

Where in California are you?

I'm in so cal - Temecula area. 45 min north of San Diego off I-15.

I priced the cost on replacing pads/rotors using only genuine porsche parts.

wow...it's almost $1000 in parts.

rotors are $140 each about. and pad sets are $140 front and $132/rear.
that's about $832. then i need to buy a bleeder and fluid.

so basically i'm looking at almost $1000 in parts to get geniuine porsche stuff.

I found a local independent Porsche shop (they only work on Porsche) that will do this job for $1300. all OEM genuine porsche parts, plus flushing the fluid. honestly, if i'm going to use OEM parts, I'd just assume pay the $300 and have them do it.

the only way to really make this a "cheap" job is to go with generic parts, like Zimmerman rotors (whichI then have to paint), and generic pads. I could probably get the ocst of parts down a few hundred bucks going generic.

say $500-600

so $500-600 with generic rotors/pads and do it myself
$900-1000 genuine porsche parts, do it myself
$1300 pay the mechanic to do it and get genuine parts.

I'm all about doing it myself, but only if I'm gonna save a lot of money. if the difference is $300, i'll pay a pro.

if I can buy generic parts and get the exact same pedal/braking feel as genuine porsche parts, do it myself and save $600, then i'd be interested in doing it myself.

what is the consensus...is there really a benefit to using genuine porsche parts? or are the brakes the same? I don't like the hassle of having to paint some generic brake rotor to avoid it rusting...it sounds lke a PITA.

is $1300 for a pro to put on OEM genuine porsche parts a good deal or a rip?

am I stupid to want to pay for OEM genuine porsche stuff and would I never know the difference in how the car drives if I use generic parts?

will generic parts last as well?

I will not track the car. spiritied street driving is all I'll do with it. i'll drive 5k/year at most.

I don't mind doing the work mysefl - but it's not something i'm looking forward to. I'd much rather pay someone else to do it as long as the price is reasonable. if it makes sense to go with OEM stuff, i'll just pay the extra few hundred and have a pro do it. BUT, if buying OEM genuine porsche parts is a COMPLETE waste of money, then I could save quite a bit by getting geneic parts and doing it myself.

what benefit is there to using genuine porsche parts?
is it no better than zimmerman rotors and pagid pads but with a designer label so I pay a premium, or is it really a better part that will work better/last longer/etc?

i don't mind paying for quality - but i don't want to pay for a label.

Dude, listen.

You can find cheaper OEM rotors & pads here.

http://e-partssales.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=P&Category_Cod e=98625brakes

$627 for front & rear rotors and pads, plus shipping of course.

ekam-

thanks. wow. that is a lot cheaper.

so now I can buy the OEM stuff for about $650 plus shipping.

$650 vs $1300. hmmmmmmmmm. now that's not a very hard one is it.... :)

Here's another Porsche dealer that sells parts almost at cost:

http://www.****************************************************.com/team.php?tid=1

email or call Jeff Clark with your parts list.

i ended up payin to get it done.

call me lazy.

guy did new pads/sensors all the way around, and only needed new front rotors. excpet i'm not 100% sure they were OEM rotors. they are stamped made in germany, but he hats are not dark like the rears..they are more the same color as the rotor surface and now that they got wet they are slightly rusting.

car stops and works great. guy also did ATE blue fluid and price was fair.

i had to take the car in for a bad vacuum leak so figured i might as well get it done all at once.

Rotor Hat Rust
 

Since this thread has been talking about brake work and rotor hat rust, I thought this would be an appropriate question:

My rotor hats are rusty :(
Can someone suggest the best/easiest method to remove the rust before I paint them?

Thanks,
Mark

Use a wire brush and tons of elbow grease. You can never get rid of it 100%, so just spray over them.

On my original rusting rotor top hats (I've just recently installed new ones), I kept the rotors on the car & used a strip of emery cloth looped over the hat section, while turning the hub - & saving my knuckles. That removed 90% of the rust, I then finished the job with wet & dry before painting with heat proof engine enamel - no primer required.
Of course, if you want to do a proper job, you need to remove the rotors completely because the rust on the inside is 10 times as bad as what you can see - its that hidden rust that drops and stains the inside of the wheels every time you wash the car....

I'm the OP. since that original post, I've done:

all new front brakes - pads/rotors. on the rears I managed to keep my stock rotors and do only new pads. flushed the fluid, all new sensors and bolts.

My rotor hats on the fronts rusted pretty badly as I didn't use rotors that had painted hats, so when I painted my brake calipers, I sanded off the rust and painted the hats with a silver engine paint...they turned out nicely.

as to my original idea of do I need to upgrade to bette brakes, like race pads, or drilled/slotted rotors..

geeez, this car stops SO hard on just these stock brakes, I don' thave ANY need for better brakes. I can haul my car down to a halt in nothing flat. Braking is NOT a weak point on this car with just stock stuff.

maybe if i was tracking the car hard i'd want to upgrade...but for spirited street driving, stock is PLENTY!!