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Old 08-26-2008, 06:53 PM   #1
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Hey Jake, I have owned two Boxsters over the past 9 years and logged over 80,000 miles on this platform. Welcome newcomer. Just as 914 owners expect value and reasonable prices Boxster owners who enter used Boxster market expect value.

I was never willing to spend $15K to $20K for a turn key 914 motor. However your kits for 914 motors are very cost effective. If you are thinking of offering a Boxster kit that includes Nickie block, crank pistons, heads etc for $5000 I'll buy one!

Jake what is the cost of a 2.5 turn key from you? Have you actually built a motor using the Nickie case yet and ran it for any length of time? Or is all this hypothetical like many of your 914 motors? You know best way to test a Boxster motor is to build one for your biggest skeptic. I'd be happy to thrash one for you. I have a running 2.5 with 100K on it that I plan to AX and track.

Jake, Do your motors carry a warranty like porsche replacements? Also how does Nickie block compare to what Autofarm is doing?

http://www.autofarm.co.uk/pdf/Total911_July06.pdf

Last edited by grantsfo; 08-26-2008 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:02 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantsfo
ake, I have owned two Boxsters over the past 9 years. Just as 914 owners expect value and reasonable prices Boxster owners who enter used Boxster market expect value.

I was never willing to spend $15K to $20K for a turn key 914 motor. Your kits for 914 motors are very cost effective. If you were thinking of offering a Boxster kit that includes Nickie block, crank pistons, heads etc for $5000 I'd buy one!

Jake what is the cost of a 2.5 turn key from you? Have you actually built a motor using the Nickie case yet and ran it for any length of time? Or is all this hypothetical like many of your 914 motors? You know best way to test a Boxster motor is to build one for your biggest skeptic. I'd be happy to thrash one for you. I have a running 2.5 with 100K on it that I plan to AX and track.
The prices are on his site. I don't know if he is allowed to post prices and such or what the rules are. I will tell you what I read. It appears that a 2.5 rebuild without bigger bore and head work is $10K. That's a great deal if you happen to pick up a Boxster with a blown engine for $6-7K and about the same as an engine from Porsche.
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:11 PM   #3
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Lots of people confuse Motec and Motronic...

What we can't solve with Motronic can be taken care of with Motec :-)
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Raby
Lots of people confuse Motec and Motronic...

What we can't solve with Motronic can be taken care of with Motec :-)
- yeah, with a whole new list of issues. I've been refining the map on my rotary for the last 5 years. Once you have the ability to tinker, you never stop.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:05 PM   #5
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Thanks for the welcome guys!

I have a 3.2 block on it's way to me and probably by the end of next week we should have it updated with a set of Nickies.

And since you guys asked, I will share some info on the IMS update we've engineered. These are the first photos posted anywhere - it's not even on our website yet.

You can see the early IMS hub and bearing support side by side with our billet replacement and you can clearly see our support is much longer, about twice the length, which has allowed us to double up the bearing surface area. We take a stock IMS and machined out the original bearing and then machine the IMS to accept our new bearings. The main key highlights are the increased surface area for the bearing, the significantly larger diameter stud and nut to hold it all in place, and open bearings to allow for positive lubrication and cooling of the bearings, where the originals were sealed. Only when the bearing was to fail on the early IMS, did oil get past the seals, filling up the IMS tube, further throwing it out of balance and making the problem worse. We've actually sealed the tube so it can't fill up while we were at it.

Right now we just have the prototypes done for testing, all one off, but after I get back from the Ventura show, I plan on doing a production run of them and will begin offering our updated IMS on an exchange basis, just like we're doing with the engine blocks.

We also have a few other goodies in development that will be ready for the Ventura show, including billet low temp thermostats and housings and spin-on oil filter adapters for the case and full flow external filter and oil cooler setups. If there's anything else that's of interest, I'm all for it. In for a penny, in for a pound.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:55 PM   #6
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First off, I appreciate your objective view of what we are doing.

Quote:
Without significant mileage on multiple samples, how do you have confidence that your rebuilds and improvements will not blow up in their own unique ways?
Porsche did a lot of work for us, and we have not had to start from scratch.. We have addressed the problematic areas with enhanced procedures and components that Porsche could not have afforded to do with engines created in very high volumes. The 911(pre water) never had these issues, because it was a much lower produced vehicle and more time was put into each unit as well as money.

Do some research on our past efforts with earlier engines and you'll see that we have taken other engines, totally redesigned them and made them go from a "Black sheep" to something highly sought after. The best case would be the Porsche 914 engine which we can now double the output of N/A and still attain the longevity of a bone stock engine. A factory 914 engine was anemic and plagued with cylinder head issues, through development we haven't had a single head related failure in a decade.

We have done this through rigorous testing in harsh environments where neglect and abuse was common... An example of this is driving a Boxster against the rev limiter for two miles at a time, trying to create a failure... (I try to do that every time I drive the test car)

I love to break parts and I love to force failures to study what happens, we have been known to scatter engines in front of a crowd of 500 under Nitrous just to see what occurs and how spectacular we can make something fail.. Breaking parts is part of success with engine design and modification.

This is not something we have just started working with and quite honestly the ONLY reason I initially agreed to assist Charles with the development was because of the challenge the engine offered. Tackling an engine with so many issues. that is so hard to work with was right up my alley- he knew that.

Quote:
Doesn't a engine designer run at least 20 cars for at least 100k miles both in simulation and on real roads in multiple climates (and even then designs and manufacturing techniques prove inadequate)?
Think Porsche did that??? HELL NO! If they did they would have never released the car until all the BS gripes were worked out! Based on the failures that everyone has documented, that we have seen at as low as 30K miles it is clear that Porsche let these engines fly out the door before anyone put close to 1100K on the first one.

In the days of the aircooled Porsche, (and VW) German soldiers were often tasked with driving the cars for tens of thousands of miles to prove their endurance and integrity- that clearly does not happen today.

Quote:
How can you duplicate such testing?
Extreme effort and attention to concern. No one forces us to test anything, we don't do it because we have to. We do this because I WANT to!

I am currently outfitting the test car with a Race-Technology DL-2 data logger that will observe both the OBD2 sensors and outputs along with 16 more channels of data acquisition that will be used to monitor all critical aspects of the engine. I have used a similar unit with our vintage development program to gain data over both street and competition environments. See this page for the data we gathered on a recent 3,450 mile trek cross the Continent to test colling system enhancements and lubricants for our Air-cooled engine program
www.aircooledtechnology.com/crosscountry

While on this trip we made a run up Loveland Pass, to the Continental Divide. When we reached the summit we met up with a pair of Engineers from Chrysler that were using the 12,000' elevation to program the ECU for their new pick up truck engine. We started chatting with them, looked at their gear and then they looked at ours and asked us why the hell we had 3 computers and 28 channels of data logging in a 40 year old car... I explained it to them and this is the reply the lead Engineer gave me.
"Damn, thats impressive, I have worked here for 18 years and we've never driven a car across the country to gather data".

We may not have the funding of a vehicle manufacturer like Porsche or Chrysler, but we damn sure have the initiative and drive to accomplish what they couldn't. We have done it before and we'll do it again! The team we have assembled is made up of highly motivated "fire pissers" like yours truly who live, eat and breathe mechanical modification..

I certainly don't want to come off like an egotistical jerk, but we are confident that what we are creating will be effective and we have been and will continue to put it to the test of both time and performance.

Building engines, lab testing them and then field testing them, followed by periodic tear downs to observe the goings on internally are the minimum of what we do. Heck I have been known to change cams in one engine 11 times in a single week just to see the gains in performance for a street engine, and that meant a complete tear down of the test engine each time...

We don't sleep much.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:26 PM   #7
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FYI

I have my 3.2 with a slight loss in compression in cyl 3 and 6 that still runs fine for sale. The car still runs and pulls strong but I am going into 3.6. Great deal on a running motor and I will ship on factory Porsche crate. I thought I would throw this in here just in case anyone wants to have Raby rebuild it. Sorry for the thread jack but I thought it tied in well here.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:21 PM   #8
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The differences in "Real Estate" between the 25 and 3.2 heads and block vary greatly. The absolute largest we can take a 2.5 bore wise is 89mm (from 85.5mm stock), the 93mm bore of the 3.2 is way too large.. The way the valves are positioned puts them right at the edge of the bore, increasing complexity.

Basically the 3.2 is a small bore 3.4, thats one reason why the 3.2 doesn't see cylinder failures nearly as catastrophic as the 3.4, or any of the earlier 2.5 and 2.7 engines.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:11 AM   #9
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I just re-read this whole thread. Jake gave some background on his experience in an early, rather long post answering several questions. And his various websites.

I'd like to reinforce the fact that he is Famous in the 914/Type IV world. The gold standard, the Raby name carries tremendous weight for bragging rights for owners with one of his engines.

I'll bet the -4 community is scared silly that the M96 venture will decrease 4-cylinder work. I for one am relieved to know that a rebuild program is feasible and that Jake Raby is involved.

No affiliation, I just spend a lot of time in the 914 kingdom.
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