Anyone have a Raby rebuild yet?

[silver arrow]

Originally Posted by kabel

I don't even think Jack has more than one of each rebuilt just yet. Sounded to me like they were still in the last stages of getting the program together.

I do not think the intention was to increase the value of boxsters, but simply to provided a needed service. The new spec boxster series will need a supplier like this too.

I agree that increasing the value of the car was not his intent, but from a price, performance, value stand point, Raby will be competing directly with the engine swap option for customers and as such, you have to make a good case for the rebuild or people will just stuff 3.4l engines in and call it a day.

I'm just giving my opinion and would like to hear other peoples opinions and experiences with swaps, value, rebuilds and such. I think this subject is very hot in the 986 community as most of our cars are getting up there in miles and or have had engine problems.

[Cloudsurfer]

I'd be very interested to hear from someone who winds up with one of these in their car.

Patrick

[Jake Raby]

I stumbled upon this post and figured I'd clarify a few points on the program we have developed.

I have been checking their site out and they are rebuilding and upgrading 2.5, 2.7, 3.2 and 3.4 M96 engines.

Correct, but not just rebuilding. We have re-developed many aspects of the Boxster and 996 in partnership with LN Engineering.

The idea behind the project was to solve the major issues with the Boxster and 996 engine while offering the opportunity to actually rebuild engines, by making the procedures more known and by creating our own assembly tools that are easy to use and available for purchase.

Does anyone in here have one of there engines?

Until a few weeks ago our engines were not for sale as the main focal point tus far has been research and development as well as component manufacturing. We are currently assembling the first engines that will be delivered to purchasers, some 3 years after the initial development processes began.

No engines have been delivered to thus far, but several are in the works as we are working to build an inventory of engines and components to mee projected future demands.

They say they can safely increase bore on the 2.5 and 2.7, increasing them to 2.7 and 2.9 respectively. With a good valve job, bore increase and ECU reprogramming they claim 260+hp with the 2.5 (bumped to 2.7). I would assume a few more hp with the 2.9.

Correct and those are real numbers. The cost for a performance engine isn't much more than the stock rebuild as ALL engines get the Nickies cylinder upgrades to guard against future cylinder related failues, like the D chunk.

Here is my thoughts on this. I think the ugraded and rebuilt Raby engines will last longer and run very strong, but they will not increase the value of your Boxster.

And neither will a factory Reman Porsche engine. The factory engines have been upgraded over time, but in a production manner the changes we are doing couldn't be applied by Porsche in high volumes.

We get a fair amount of calls from owners with factory re-man engines that have had a failure, some in less than 10K miles, but it seems the majority occur around 30K.

A 3.4l swap will cost about the same, have a few more ponies and will increase the value of your car, allowing some return on investment of the engine swap cost if you sell it. But I don't think the 3.4 will be anymore reliable than the 2.5 or 2.7 you took out the the car.

The stock 3.4/ 996 engines are the absolute worst for cracked heads and D chunk failures. we have repaired more 3.4 cases than all the others combined thus far, and those had the most radical failures of all. They also seem to have the worst IMS failures.

Anyone that has had them rebuild their engine please give me your thoughts, even if it was for a competition vehicle.

You won't find any of those people, as they are all currently awating their engines to be completed.

I'd like to know your thoughts on dealing with Raby and how long it took to get the engine built.

An extensive amount of information about my company is available b doing a simple google search for my name. My biggest area of expertise has been in the Aircooled engine world and the re-development of the Porsche 914 engine. The 914/4 engine had many issues from the factory and for the first 20 years of it's existence it was considered a black sheep that not many people wanted. I put a decade of development and application into it and turned my version into a true "problem solver" for the 914 world. I have done similar things with the 356/912, also with exceptional results.

Three years ago I was approached by Charles from LNE Engineering to assist him with the development of the 986/87 and 996/97 engines. I had been prodded by many folks to apply my experience with engine and component design with other engines into the later model Porsche engines and finally I decided to open a division to specialize in this, I would head this division.

We have now solved most all the general Boxster and 996 component issues and have a product that we feel is ready to be applied to the market. We will continue to hone the processes and components as evolution and experience is further gained.

Thats a little about me/ us and the program. More can be found on our websites as we are more well known in the aircooled circles than anywhere else.


I'll now address some comments made by other posters in this thread:

Posted by Kubel.
I do not think the intention was to increase the value of boxsters, but simply to provided a needed service. .

Correct. We have never been concerned with the increase of vehicle costs and until a few weeks ago we had no concern with costs at all! Till that point we hadn't even added up the costs of building the engines as we were more concerned with the efforts being effective more than anything else.
I believe that over time our finished product will become synonomous with effectiveness in the Boxster world as more cars are equipped with our engines and components. At that point, more than likely cars equipped with these engines **may** be worth more coin.

The new spec boxster series will need a supplier like this too

Correct and we are currently working with the "powers that be" to create a "spec Boxster" engine that will not give a performance edge to the purchaser, but will provide the added reliability and longevity that competitors can desire. The combination we are testing now does just that. It was difficult not to provide more power that a stock engine as the Nikisil and our valve job alone can make a HUGE differene in power and throttle response.

By silver arrow
I agree that increasing the value of the car was not his intent, but from a price, performance, value stand point, Raby will be competing directly with the engine swap option for customers and as such, you have to make a good case for the rebuild or people will just stuff 3.4l engines in and call it a day.

I want to take the opoprtunity to share a bit about what we desire from the program . The ultimate plan is to make these engines capable of being repaired and modified by more normal gear heads, or by independant Porsche shops across the country that currently can't even work on them, because they can't source parts, tools or even ask anyone a question.

We will be offering "rebuilt" engines that are fully dyno tuned and upgraded, but thats more the case initially as we need more and more experience to learn the engines inside and out. The ultimate goal is the creation of a program that will provide open source support to the enthusiast and shop alike and will allow shops to attain components, tools and even training on using these items when creating a Boxster or 996 performance engine.

So, just to clarify, we have started the first US based engine alternative for the 986/97 and 996/97, and we have no intention to compete with Porsche or engine swaps. We feel that there is a significant market for our alternative engine program, especially as the cars become older and are used more in amateur racing venues that would not accomodate the 3.4 conversion.

Guyss wanting even more power than the 3.4 can provide would also be interested in the higher echelon of our offerings, using boost specific components and application.

The goal was to provide an option. That option would be a true alternative to paying Porsche for a re-man engine. And we looked into the future to the time when Porsche will no longer offer a re-man engine for the early cars, leaving thousands of owners without any options for engine repair. The tentative date fior this is 2011, so we will be well prepared for the day, when it comes.

I'm just giving my opinion and would like to hear other peoples opinions and experiences with swaps, value, rebuilds and such. .

At the present, it is VERY difficult even for a shop, or a professional to "rebuild" the engines. The parts are almost impossible to find (Porsche lists them, but try to order them) and not enough people have taken engines apart and rebuilt them successfully to have any knowledge base as of yet. It was even difficult for a guy like me, an engine designer and developer to do this! Thats what we want to alleviate, foiling Porsche's "plot" that worked for several years.

I think this subject is very hot in the 986 community as most of our cars are getting up there in miles and or have had engine problems

Exactly.. We want to make it a possibility for the Boxster to be worked on internally in the back yards and garages all over the country, and help people overcome the complexity that Porsche designed into the rebuild process by supplying parts/ services/ training for anyone who desires it..

So, thats pretty much sums it up.. The program is going strong already, and with our original businesses paying the bills we were able to afford the development of this program without having to "sell" engines to clients as "guinea pigs". We have our own test vehicle (98 Boxster) and have used it to apply concepts and gather data.

We are currently working on both single and twin Turbo application specific engine internals as well as the "kit" of components that will compliment these into complete packages.

In the aircooled world our team has been very effective, doing more R&D and true development than anyone else over the past decade. We plan to develop the Boxster and 996/97 engines with the same level of dedication and philosophies and we are certain that we'll be successful.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss our program.

Jake Raby,
President, Flat 6 Innovations
www.flat6innovations.com

FWIW- I have sent several messages to the admin about advertising here on the forums, so I hope the post doesn't "ruffle any feathers". If a member of the admin will please contact me I'll gladly begin advertising!!

[kabel]

Thanks for dropping in Jack. Nothing like hearing from the proverbial horses mouth
I've been following the discussions about this on the spec boxster forum, if it all works out we will be very fortunate to have this resource available to us.

[Jake Raby]

It seems that the 3.2 engines have the least cylinder substantial cylinder failures because the block is the same as the 3.4, but the bore is smaller.. This adds some integrity to the cylinder for sure.

We have yet to find a 3.2 core with a cylinder failure, but Charles at LN says that he has the first cases coming in now from other shops that have failures, so we'll be able to study those soon.

As far as cost goes, I don't want to mention any of that here, because I certainly don't want t push the rules, being a newbie and all... Its all posted on the website on the online store.

And YES Grant, we have running engines with the Nickies upgrades already done. My '98 will have one going into it around Thanksgiving.

As for emissions in Cali, well I was speaking "performance" engines, not stockers. I am mandated to tell anyone that is in California that anything we do to an engine isn't going to be street legal.

As for warranty- This is still up in the air and we'll be addressing it soon as the first engines make their way into the hands of users soon. None of those guys were concerned with warranty as they appreciate what we have created and want to share the experience of being one of the "first"...

One thing is for sure, no performance engine will receive a warranty, I learned that from my 914 experience and haven't had a warranty practice in 10 years. Don't race it if you don't want to risk it!
I will say that the Porsche warranty isn't honored in a lot of instances and plenty of evidence of that is right here on these boards. If we offer a warranty, it'll be very well outlined and the owner will have practices that must be carried out and recommendations that must be followed.

[blue2000s]

Jake - I applaud your effort on the M96 engine. From your post above, you mention that you address the IMS on these engines but I don't where this is described on your site.

[cnavarro]

Jake and I have been working together on numerous projects for years and years and it just seemed logical for us to team up on addressing some of the areas with these engines that could use improvement and make them accessible.

We've been developing and doing the updated 2.5 and 3.4 blocks on a one by one basis now for probably almost 2 years or somewhere thereabouts, but only now have we decided to stock completed stock and big bore blocks on an exchange basis. I really got in high gear when I was teamed up on by Wayne Dempsey and Bruce Anderson and was hinted at Porsche's eventual discontinuation of reman engines by multiple sources.

Up until probably two months ago, I had never had any inquires or calls with regards to failed 3.2 engines from a d-chuck cylinder failure, but that has changed. Regardless, I figured eventually someone would want a big bore kit for this engine as we can increase the bore significantly to make a 3.2 into a 3.6.

Where our Nickies solution differs from a traditional steel sleeve (like Autofarm) is that we keep Porsche's original design more or less intact - open deck, aluminum sleeve, etc. We also maintain the cast in trusses on the crankcase side of the cylinder sleeves to provide added support to our sleeve whent he piston is travelling at BDC. For any increase in bore size, we proportionally increase the wall thickness of the sleeve to maintain the same thickness as the original cylinder would have had. The only difference here is that our alloy is significantly more strong and ductile than the original alloy. We use our proprietary alloy that was developed for our aircooled cylinders which is significantly stronger, more thermally conductive, and has greater ductility than the original casting alloy used. We use a nikasil process on the bores, similar to what Autofarm does on their ductile iron sleeves.

To keep things simple, we digitized the original piston crown and have JE make a piston sharing the same design, on their forged side relief blanks, allowing for a much stronger and even lighter piston than the factory cast ones. Our cylinder alloy also best suits the expansion rates of the JE Piston, just as the original cast pistons were properly matched to the original block and sleeve alloy.

Similarly, we've been addressing individual engine components as needed, such as making replacement connecting rods and more recently, developing a much needed update for the early IMS. Other simple, but much needed bolt-ons like a spin on oil filter adapter (to allow use of better, cheaper oil filters) as well as filter relocation kits which allow for external oil coolers for track or extreme climates. We're also trying to get a new low temp thermostat and thermostat housing done, addressing both high oil and coolant temps as well as the oe design where the retaining tabs for the factory thermostat break off. Be sure as Jake finds other areas that could use improvement, we'll tackle them. I also have a local factory trained technician that is very willing to contribute as well, making suggestions to where improvement is needed and who is also helping me document failures.

I welcome ideas and suggestions and even would like to hear from you if you have a failure so we can document it. The best way to make improvements is through analyzing failures. Honestly, I think the 986 and 996 engine can be make robust enough to outlive it's aircooled predecessors.

Although in it's early stages, I'm sure the aftermarket for the Boxster and later water-cooled Porsches will be just as big if not bigger than that of the aircooled ones.

Come visit us at the Ventura German Autofest in September!

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[silver arrow]

Welcome to the forums Charles. Thank you for your innovation. I look forward to seeing new performanceproducts for the Boxster.

[dmcutter]

I emailed Jake for info and he called me at lunch. Just like a real person! Here is the jist of the conversation. A 3.6 build from my 3.2 would be comparable in cost to a 3.6 transplant, but based on much info below it would be a more robust, longer lasting engine than a stock 3.6. Based on his software modeling, he would be shooting for 350 hp at the flywheel, and more torque than hp. The build would include the Nikkies cylinders, new pistons, billet con rods, and IMS upgrade.

So better power than a stock 3.6, and theoretically better longevity. Sounds like a touch more hp than the turbo, and significantly more torque, but at a significantly higher price ($6-$7K more) but normally aspirated, so not the "ticking time bomb" so many feel a boosted stock engine to be. For the money, it sounds like the 3.6 build is the best way to drastically increase power without pushing the engine to the ragged edge. I also like the idea of the IMS upgrade. Food for thought.

[RandallNeighbour]

This is a wonderful thread. I will inevitably be a Raby customer.

Now what can I sell on eBay to get some cash together?

[kabel]

Charles, thanks for joining us too. Very excited about your progress.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by dmcutter

I emailed Jake for info and he called me at lunch. Just like a real person! Here is the jist of the conversation. A 3.6 build from my 3.2 would be comparable in cost to a 3.6 transplant, but based on much info below it would be a more robust, longer lasting engine than a stock 3.6. Based on his software modeling, he would be shooting for 350 hp at the flywheel, and more torque than hp. The build would include the Nikkies cylinders, new pistons, billet con rods, and IMS upgrade.

So better power than a stock 3.6, and theoretically better longevity. Sounds like a touch more hp than the turbo, and significantly more torque, but at a significantly higher price ($6-$7K more) but normally aspirated, so not the "ticking time bomb" so many feel a boosted stock engine to be. For the money, it sounds like the 3.6 build is the best way to drastically increase power without pushing the engine to the ragged edge. I also like the idea of the IMS upgrade. Food for thought.

It was really nice talking to you about power potential and reliability upgrades...

Time will tell exactly what we can do with the 3.2>>3.6 internal work for sure.. It seems that this upgrade is highly sought after and is gaining much more attention than we initially had expected.

We are realigning the testing schedule to favor this conversion and the 2.9 built from the 2.5/2.7 engines more than anything else.... We expect to make some very big power from these two combinations, compared to their base engines.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by dmcutter

I emailed Jake for info and he called me at lunch. Just like a real person! Here is the jist of the conversation. A 3.6 build from my 3.2 would be comparable in cost to a 3.6 transplant, but based on much info below it would be a more robust, longer lasting engine than a stock 3.6. Based on his software modeling, he would be shooting for 350 hp at the flywheel, and more torque than hp. The build would include the Nikkies cylinders, new pistons, billet con rods, and IMS upgrade.

So better power than a stock 3.6, and theoretically better longevity. Sounds like a touch more hp than the turbo, and significantly more torque, but at a significantly higher price ($6-$7K more) but normally aspirated, so not the "ticking time bomb" so many feel a boosted stock engine to be. For the money, it sounds like the 3.6 build is the best way to drastically increase power without pushing the engine to the ragged edge. I also like the idea of the IMS upgrade. Food for thought.

Cost comparable to transplanting a stock 3.6 into what model year of car? Depending on the DME compatibility (model year of car and engine), there can be a significant difference in engine transplant costs.

Again, what is done to improve the IMS?

[silver arrow]

How is engine management going to be handled? What software is going to be used to reflash and will it be able to be custom tuned or is it going to be an off the shelf tune for each engine combo?